Aw man, imagine using technology to reduce the amount of time people had to spend working, rather than making rich people more money… what a crazy world.
It’s crazy. I’ve read in a few books (fiction, of course) that mention, in passing, that the 40 hour workweek was now replaced by a 32 hour workweek, or something similar.
When do we get to reap the benefits of all of these boosts to productivity?
“Worker productivity” has been going up for 50 years, but compensation hasn’t been. That extra money goes into the pockets of the board and shareholders and CEOs.
80 years ago, the average CEO pay was about 20x the lowest pay in his company. Now, instead, we have billionaires.
We have had ultra-rich people and major wealth inequality for most of American history. Rockefeller (1838-1937) amassed a fortune in the 1800s in excess of $400B inflation adjusted dollars. By most measures, he was the richest American of all time.
The second richest American of all time is up for debate but contenders include Andrew Carnegie (1835-1919), Cornelius Vanderbilt (1794-1877), Henry Ford (1863-1947), or Bill Gates (1955-present).
Wealth inequality has obviously grown over the past 50 years but it’s worth noting that wealth inequality in general is not a uniquely modern problem. It is also exaggerated by comparing to the 1970s, where wealth inequality was at a historical low point (see graph below)
I’m not talking about the single outliers at the top, but about the “billionaire class” in general, it’s a pretty modern concept. There’s a reason I said “Average” and not “Richest”
Yes, if we go back to before 1900 the wealthiest people had more of the pie, but this is largely a product of the bottom of society having, essentially, nothing. 1800s societies were capable of producing enough for (most people) to survive, and there wasn’t much excess “wealth” to go around. While the rich collected most of that, the difference is in the scale of “available resources.” It’s not a comparable system when most of your population are serfs.
I don’t find it encouraging to say “oh well, this isn’t unique, look it used to be like this 100 years ago!” when 100 years ago the quality of life for regular people was abysmal.
The fact that your graphs show wealth inequality steadily growing is the major concern. We had a more equitable society in the 1970s by a long shot. Our current state isn’t inevitable, it’s a result of the policies we’ve implemented. With current trends, do we want our society to return to those dynamics of the1800s? In a world where we’ve so much automation and wealth in the world that we could care for everyone why do people still have to work 40+ hours a week just to get by?
Funny you should say “we” and “American History” though :) Maybe the American model is the problem here.
You said “now we have billionaires” like it’s a new phenomena. The graph I posted tracks the total wealth share of the top 1% wealthiest people, which is a much better picture of income inequality than the “average CEO”. Notice that the total wealth share went from 30% to 35% since its low in 1970, which is a much smaller change than the 200+x difference that people like to quote.
While inequality is growing, it’s not nearly as dramatic as people make it out to be and in 2023 we are far closer to that 1970s low than we were a century ago
In a world where we’ve so much automation and wealth in the world that we could care for everyone why do people still have to work 40+ hours a week just to get by?
I don’t disagree with you. Most people in white collar jobs realistically don’t get more than 5 hours a day of real productive work done to begin with. Why do we need to be at the office for 8 hours?
I just think it’s important to look at the data in an objective way. Instead of posting inflammatory comments on Lemmy that exaggerate the situation, you could try lobbying your representatives for better worker protections.
Funny you should say “we” and “American History” though :) Maybe the American model is the problem here.
Well, I’m American lol. But the trends are similar in almost every developed country so I don’t think this is an American problem.
Your first argument is, again, very American-centric - yes the rate that wealth inequality is growing in the USA is less pronounced than in other places, but it was always pretty bad in the USA. The argument that “trends are similar in almost every developed country” is also a little disingenuous - it’s true for the G8. In many European countries, they’re actually taxing the wealthy sensibly and putting that money into public services to make everyone’s lives better, the wealth gap is much smaller and the quality of life and happiness of regular people is better.
Again “a century ago” or longer doesn’t matter because it’s pre-industrial revolution. The total amount of “wealth to go around” was much smaller, and we were living under very different systems.
If a king or an emperor owns 50% of the wealth of a nation, and everyone else is equal, then yes, your graph will show “the top 1% have 50% of the wealth” but also your system is specifically designed to give all the money to one person. Arguing “well 100 or 200 years ago this was worse” is moot, because we’re comparing different systems… Unless your point is that our current system is also designed to deprive all wealth and comfort to the masses to enrich a select few, and we should be “thankful” that it’s less good at it.
We have to compare within the same system, and look for the best we can do. Unless you’re specifically arguing that the wealth distribution in the 1970s is unsustainable, then that’s an example of when we were capable of doing better, and it’s okay to find that as something to aspire and build towards.
Lobbying your representatives for better worker protections is a joke, especially in America. Many representatives in the USA don’t even hold surgeries, you can’t talk to them directly. You can write them a letter, which they ignore. Rich corporations pay our representatives massive donations to their campaigns (or in other countries, they pay them via more circuitous routes), and they get the policy that benefits them.
Here’s an example - Back at the start of the Trump administration, a bill was written by the house to make it legal for ISPs to sell your private information and browsing history to corporations for their own profits. A number of polling institutions went around and took some credible large-scale polls of public opinion about this. 98% of respondents opposed the bill. The legislation passed congress and is now law. Who’s “lobbying” of congress matters? individuals, or Comcast?
There are a very small number of US representatives who refuse to take money from large corporations - and those, in general, seem to hold the interests of the people to heart. Before “lobbying your representatives” can work, there needs to be widespread grassroots movements to elect more of these people. Until that happens, there aren’t representatives, there are rulers.
It’s not inflammatory to argue for better systems. It’s not a lie that while we’ve had a massive industrial revolution that increased the productivity of workers, those benefits have not been seen by the workers. We still work just as long, and just as hard, for an ever diminishing amount of the pie. You can say “oh but you have a fancy car” but… just look at the percentage of people who own their own home by generation. The current trends are extremely concerning and need to change.
There were some fairly major studies in the UK last year, across many companies and multiple industries, where they reduced the 5 day workweek to a 4 day workweek, whilst keeping the compensation of workers the same overall (i.e. salaried workers got the same salary, hourly workers got 25% more per hour)
The majority of companies involved in the study found that their workers were significantly healthier and happier after adjusting to the new schedule… and as a result significantly more “productive”. Profits even went up despite the reduced working time. Most of them elected to keep with the new system once the study ended.
Obviously you can’t do this with every industry, certain industries need 24/7 coverage or the like… you can’t run an ER 4 days out of 7 - but the takeaway is that it’d be better to employ more people for less time and pay them well - you’ll get better results than you will with an exhausted and depressed workforce
In many ways, we have been. The average person has casual access to goods and services that would have been immensely inaccessible without industrialization. Consider the average car for example. The engine alone has hundreds of tightly toleranced parts working in a mechanical dance to harness thousands of controlled explosions per second. That doesn’t even touch on the complex support systems required for engine management or chassis/suspension. I can buy a well running used car for less than the cost of a month’s rent.
Compare that to the pre-industrial era, when a simple shirt would have taken a single person 500-600 hours in manual labor to make starting from raw wool. That’s more than three months’ work with a 40 hour work week.
It’s truly amazing that any minimum wage worker in the USA can buy multiple used cars, a monumentally complex piece of machinery by any historical standard, for less labor than it would take to get a new shirt a few hundred years ago.
That said, I do believe we have the capacity to get these benefits PLUS reduced work hours. We will see that when we demand better worker protections from lawmakers and stop equating a human’s value to society with the number of hours they work each week.
I’ve seen this argument before.
Maybe if you shill for billionaires a bit harder they’ll give you one of their yachts.
If you think we are materially worse off now than we were before the introduction of automation you are either pushing hardcore propaganda or absolutely delusional.
Real median middle class income has stayed effectively constant since the 1980s. However, with automation the variety of goods available at that income level have dramatically improved. This is the benefit that the consumer sees and pretending it’s not a real benefit is disingenuous at best.
Maybe if you shill for billionaires a bit harder they’ll give you one of their yachts.
You really think so? That would be amazing
“Real median middle class income has stayed effectively constant since the 1980s”
That’s the entire point that was being made in the first place! Productivity has increased massively, income has “stayed constant” - So, we’re working harder and producing more for the sole benefit of the rich.
I mean, knights weren’t exactly poor people. This knight found a way to make his serfs make him more money.
Yeah, IIRC a knight’s suit of armor and weapons alone were worth more than most people in medieval times would ever earn in their entire lifetime. Knights traveling on horseback were the modern day equivalent of a celebrity rolling around town in a Ferrari
It’s actually quite fitting that the knight, part of the aristocraty, isn’t interested in Kapital
eh, knights were a tad more worldly and should at least realize that it’d be fucking brilliant to not starve when going to war, which has historically been a massive issue.
More efficient labor means less issues when drafting all my levies, which in turn means more meat between me and the actual danger
“But if I keep sending more wheat to the dragon, I’ll get to be a dragon one day. They told me so on the Internet.”
And G-Money is going to be a vampire any day now!
Nerds, annoyingly being useful. Being useful while being annoying
Gdam nerds
