My premise is that, with respect to supporting a party that will support unions, itād be ludicrous to expect that support from the GOP, because theyāve been consistently anti-union for over 40 years.
one way to escalate your pressure is to scare them into thinking you might endorse the republican ticket
Yeah, and Iām asserting that itās stupid to even consider endorsing the republican ticket, given how much worse republicans are for unions. Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company; threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
And nothing says that republicansĀ necessarilycouldnāt offer better support to unions - even if teamstersĀ didĀ endorse Trump, it very well could be because Trump made a material concession to their interest. Nothing says that Teamsters should be interested in anything other than protecting their unionās interests, even if that means getting it from the Republicans, if they are āplaying ballā. (The teamsters are a union for a very conservative group of members; itās not out of the question that Trump might grant some very targeted concessions to that group in order to shore up his base)
Yeah, they could offer better support for unionsā¦they could also offer to lower prescription drug prices and make school lunches free for grade schoolers. Theyāre not gonna do any of those things, b/c they donāt wanna do any of those things and they havenāt wanted to do any of those things in at least 40 years. Iāll accept cited evidence to the contrary, otherwise we can agree to disagree.
Thatās why itās crazy that the democrats arenāt making an effort to beĀ moreĀ pro-union - in most other ways, democrats are the obvious harm-reduction choice. But letās not pretend as if union protections havenāt been under constant attack and legal challenges during the Biden administration - there is a lot of room for Harris to offer more in the way of union and labor legislation and support.
What specific issue do you take with the Democratic partyās support for unions? Do you refute my earlier link calling a Biden a good pro-union president, and if so can you provide sourced info to explain why?
There are a lot of reasons why everyone ought to vote for democrats over republicans,
Yeah
but pretending as if there are no material reasons a group with specific labor interests might choose to endorse republicans is itself naieve.
This feels like such a āno uā lol. What reasons does a group with specific labor interests have to endorse a party thatās been overly pro-company since Reagan?
Ideally this should motivate the democrats to offer better policy to their constituents, but seems as if democrats would much rather point fingers and accuse those asking for better policy as being covert opposition.
Again, what policies specifically?
AOC shouldnāt be blaming Teamsters for agitating for better labor policy, and doing soĀ absolutely ispunching left, becauseĀ the thing Teamsters is interested in is a politically-left objective. Not that AOC doesnāt have personal reasons for ignoring those broader goals, but that doesnāt mean what sheās doing isnāt punching left.
Look. I donāt know very much about Sean OāBrien. Iām not gonna accuse him of secretly being anti-union or any crazy bs like that. But if going to the RNC and not endorsing Harris are moves that benefits Republicans (it does), and if Republicans are worse on unions (they are), then whether he means to or not, heās hurting union workers. From that lens, AOC questioning his leadership isnāt punching left - sheās either punching a guy whoās actually to her right (for reasons outside workersā rights) or punching a guy who might as well be.
And one more thing: at the end of the day, sheās critical of the guy, not the mission. Sheās not saying āworkers shouldnāt have more protectionsā, sheās saying āI question the leadership of this guy whose job it is to get workers more protectionsā. And quite frankly I agree with that.
Edit: yāknow how I said I donāt know much about Sean OāBrien? Well thanks to another lemmyer, now I do!
So yeah, if thereās an ounce of truth to this, it speaks to the nagging feeling I have that heās the kind of guy whoās a probably secretly a conservative forā¦other reasons.
So yeah, if thereās an ounce of truth to this, it speaks to the nagging feeling I have that heās the kind of guy whoās a probably secretly a conservative forā¦other reasons.
I think this is where liberal understandings of union and labor relations as R or D policy agendas really gets in the way of a broader historical understanding of labor movements, and itās the reason Iām not particularly interested in having this debate with you. There have been many labor groups and unions in the USās history that have been on the wrong side of racial and civil rights issues. W.E.B. Du Bois described the relationship between American racism, slavery, and labor relations during and after slavery almost 100 years ago now. Hell, even as recently as the civil rights movement unions were split on the support of racial segregation in the south. Hereās one article from Herbert Hill written in '59 that discusses this issue pretty clearly.
Teamsters is a union of truck drivers. In American political terms, truckers are one of the most vocally conservative labor demographics in the US; it shouldnāt be surprising that there would be discrimination within it. But thatās exactly the problem with american political discourse. We cleave our working class apart with racial and social animosity at the expense of solidarity.
Without a broader understanding of material relations as fundamental to political movements, I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on this. It isnāt as simple as ādemocrats are more labor friendlyā - both parties are dominated by capitalist interests, even if one makes greater attempts to balance it with labor concessions. If labor is to gain any ground in the US, it needs to be party agnostic and be aggressive about negotiating with both parties.
I have a lot Iād like to, but wonāt, say about your comment, because itās very dismissive of my entire reply, in favor of you choosing to dissect my motivations for adding a loosely-related footnote. I will say that most of your comment feels like I could boil it down to āyou almost tricked me into taking your questions at face value, but then you said that OāBrien being racist might be sorta relevant, so clearly I have a broader understanding ofā¦somethingā¦then you, so youāll never see that Iām rightā. You could clarify if you want, but I donāt really care.
That said, Iāll try to focus on your last couple sentences:
It isnāt as simple as ādemocrats are more labor friendlyā - both parties are dominated by capitalist interests, even if one makes greater attempts to balance it with labor concessions. If labor is to gain any ground in the US, it needs to be party agnostic and be aggressive about negotiating with both parties.
If this is the entire point youāve been driving at this whole time, then I still disagree with you, but I can respect your opinion. You might be right that we wonāt see eye-to-eye, but not because of me probably not having a deeper understanding of āmaterial relations being fundamental to political movementsā, or you probably not having a deeper appreciation of āactual meat-and-bones policy being fundamental to the satisfaction of union members, both short-term and long-termā. I think you and I might just have different priorities, and Iām fine leaving it at that.
All that said, I wanna circle back one more time on the actual debate that started this thing, because it wasnāt āwhat is the direct course of action unions are justified in taking to optimize worker satisfactionā. It was literally something as nebulous as āDid AOC āpunch leftā by criticizing OāBrienā. OP already admitted he probably just chose the wrong words, which I respect. Can we at the very least agree, whether your personal answer to that question is yes or no, that suggesting AOC is āpunching leftā is a poorly-worded and/or insufficiently brief critique?
If this is the entire point youāve been driving at this whole time, then I still disagree with you, but I can respect your opinion. You might be right that we wonāt see eye-to-eye, but not because of me probably not having a deeper understanding of āmaterial relations being fundamental to political movementsā, or you probably not having a deeper appreciation of āactual meat-and-bones policy being fundamental to the satisfaction of union members, both short-term and long-termā.
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness), but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
All that said, I wanna circle back one more time on the actual debate that started this thing, because it wasnāt āwhat is the direct course of action unions are justified in taking to optimize worker satisfactionā. It was literally something as nebulous as āDid AOC āpunch leftā by criticizing OāBrienā
Yes, I still think it is punching left, and I think @the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works was mistaken in walking it back. It would be one thing if she was making a point to advocate for democratic policy choices, but the comment from AOC in question was:
āWhen the Teamsters are in trouble, who do they call when we need to make sure that Teamsters pensions are bailed out? ā¦ It was Sean OāBrien calling Democrats for helpā
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members. This was in response to them simply declining to endorse either candidate because they ācouldnāt get commitments on our issuesā. Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats even if you think theyāre wrong, and the worst way to respond to that feedback is to throw a tantrum and complain that theyāre being ungrateful.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left). What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue and involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Okay, Iāll take āmaybe even understandablyā.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness),
Dude. SUPER pedantic.
but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
I guess Iāll more or less repeat myself from earlier: Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company, but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
Okay, fine, you disagree. But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over? Yāknow, the kind of pedantry I feel like weāve been arguing over this whole time?
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members.
Depends on how you define āadvocating for its membersā. Signaling support for the political party most of your constituents align with, most definitely for reasons outside workersā rights, is one definition. Signalling support for the for the party thatāll actually help your constituents? Thatās another.
Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left).
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue *and* involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some coreĀ assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating.
But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over?
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
Because iām not privy to what the teamsters are asking for, but Iām personally frustrated that democrats keep burying their labor offerings in capital funding and investments. Democrats assume that they can make up for any loss of industry growth in one segment of the economy by promoting growth in another, but thatās not comforting to unions or unaffiliated industry workers in the rust belt, where thereās usually only one or two major job producers in their towns. Even if those jobs were being created in exactly the same place, loosing a job and having to change industry is incredibly destabilizing. Most Americans donāt have more than a couple thousand in savings, let alone a few months of expenses. Bragging about jobs created with the CHIPS act or other legislation isnāt comforting to people who live in towns that arenāt a recipient of that investment.
I think democrats need to expand social programs and remove pointless means-testing that excludes a lot of working families from benefits (and pits them against working class families in urban centers). The more socialized benefits available to small town workers, the less pressure there will be to remain employed in a dying industry. That includes childcare, healthcare, housing, food; basically everything theyāre afraid to campaign on because republicans will accuse them of being radical socialists. And they really need to stop responding to fears about job losses in small town industries by bragging about job creation in other industries.
The alternativeās are all less appealing to a socialist - a lot of unions are pushing tarrifs on foreign goods, cutting environmental regulation, ect. You canāt win those voters by creating jobs elsewhere - you really need to convince those voters that they arenāt going to be left behind if/when their townās industry goes belly-up, and saying ātough luck, move and change industriesā is only going to radicalize them further. Especially when unemployment benefits are covered in all kinds red tape and are exceedingly difficult to apply for and stay on.
As far as legislation specific to labor protections: they need to campaign on the legislation theyāve already put forward. The PRO act is an excellent bill, but iāve not heard Harris or any top democratic leadership actually campaign on it or push it in public.
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job. Be grateful he didnāt follow the popular opinion of his members and endorse trump. I would also mention that their support of trump is pretty heavily represented in PA, WI, and MI - all states that democrats really need to win. They shouldnāt be burning bridges with Teamsters.
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
Labor protections are a definitionally-left issue. I want democrats to bend left
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some core assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
There absolutely is a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democrats at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating
I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
Donāt like my original analogue? Fine, replace āchoosing toā with āthreatening toā. The part youāre dancing around is the āmore exploitativeā part -the part where the side OāBrien is threatening to support isnāt a not-Dem-but-pro-union party, itās a not-Dem-but-anti-union party. And I suspect heās playing ball with them IN SPITE OF not having any appreciable consolidations made by republicans in favor of his union. Donāt bother suggesting āwe donāt know there werenāt consolidationsā, neither of us know. Though thereās plenty of indirect evidence that the modern GOP just doesnāt care - case in point, every party-line PRO Act vote in the past 5 years.
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
You make it sound like AOC is only frustrated with OāBrien for not endorsing Harris. From my very first comment in this thread: thatās not \all heās done*.
Your next 4 paragraphsā¦Iāll get back to those.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job
Then he should act like it and not help the leopards thatāll eat his face.
There absolutelyĀ isĀ a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democratsĀ at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
I wasnāt saying that was the disagreement, I was saying thereās some core disagreement we probably have, thatās probably flying under both our radars. And no, you havenāt magically identified what that is. I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
Back to those 4 paragraphsā¦finally, a little actual substance.
And you know what I have to say about it? I have to say that I actually feel even MORE strongly that OāBrien is a bad leader.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents. Trumpās last term saw him hire an anti-union Reagan-era lawyer to the NLRB, stacked the courts with anti-union judges, took various other anti-union actions, and neither him nor any Republicans proposed a single page of legislation. They didnāt even support the PRO Act, legislation that helps unions everywhere, rust belt included, and was introduced even before Dems took back the WH (meaning Democrats didnāt stand to look good if it got passed). And the GOP still voted heavily against it, and have done so ever since.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people? Denying Trump an endorsement doesnāt go far enough - OāBrien either shouldnātāve gone to the RNC, or shouldāve flipped the bird at everybody there. Donāt just leave an endorsement out of your speech - actually say āI wanna endorse you, but you fuckers are letting us downā. I could see that acknowledging their incompetence to their faces MAYBE moving the needle on the GOP, or at least, itād be a respectable attempt.
I get you feel like unions need bipartisan support to make a permanent, lasting difference. And yāknow what? I think I agree with you on that. But that doesnāt mean I agree that itās worth giving the modern GOP anything, so much as an RNC speech, now. They should work for it. BY ACTUALLY VOTING ON PRO-UNION POLICIES AND ACTIONS. Then, it makes sense to play both sides. Until then, let them know that theyāre not getting an ounce of support.
I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
That was the hypothetical side of the analogue. Them announcing that they wonāt be endorsing is similar to a union announcing negotiations have failed and they going on strike - an action that materially damages their companyās income and is (in some ways) a violent means to escalating the issue. The union is definitionally an appendage of its parent company; them āleaving to work for a different companyā just doesnāt make sense, itād be like an arm cutting itself off at the shoulder.
I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
āNonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.ā
If any action that hurts a democratic campaign is outside the bounds of acceptable direct action to you, then this is precisely where our disagreement is. Electing not to endorse the democratic ticket is the lightest possible criticism one could possibly make.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents.
Look, I already told you I had no interest in having this debate with you. We are clearly not seeing eye to eye.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned with their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiate with.
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it, but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people?
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democrats have proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦ And those are simple, believable solutions to their problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to get their bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid over huge gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
To address your first 3 paragraphsā¦youāre acting like all I care about is OāBrienās non endorsement. I guess Iāll spell out the thing Iāve said in every single comment on this thread: Not endorsing democrats = fine. Not endorsing democrats + speaking at the RNC and NOT directly calling them out on their bs = fucking stupid. You keep treating the non-endorsement like itās in a vacuum. And you can disagree with my math, but if you continue to pretend that this isnāt what Iām saying, then youāre just straw-manning me.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned withĀ their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiateĀ with.
Yes, itās understandable that workers feel like they wonāt survive if their industry diesā¦but in the specific case of coal, the solution isnāt to bolster that industry. Much of the solution is to create new jobs in growing industries that coal workers could transfer into, and to set guarantees that those new jobs arenāt exploitative. Democrats have fought, withĀ real action,Ā to do both the former, and the latter (I wonāt source the latter again, read any of my pro-union sources).
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it,
Yes, and not only do they campaign on it - they consistently vote in favor of it. But go on.
but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Yes, I get their fear. And thatās why the liberal solution to those fears is making it easier to switch jobs and to provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, unemployment, all on top of pro-worker reformā¦all LEFT-LEANING policies that the modern GOP will NEVER ENDORSE.
It sounds like youāre just trying to explain what many workers see as the solution. They think the tried-and-true solution is to bolster their industries, instead of all the stuff I just listed. But thatās a conservative solution to the problem.
It sounds like you want the democrats to have liberal policies in general, which is what I want too. But what, in your head, does OāBrien want? If he wants conservative industry-first policies, then AOC isnāt punching left at the guy, end of story. And if heĀ actuallyĀ wants liberal, boosting-quality-of-life-policies (the kinds of policies I want and you seem to want), then heās an idiot or a coward, or both, for not getting mad at the modern GOP for spinning all of that negatively as socialism.
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democratsĀ haveĀ proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦And those are simple, believable solutions toĀ theirĀ problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to getĀ theirĀ bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Youāre not addressing the subtlety that whileĀ theyĀ feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutions, and whileĀ youĀ seem to feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutionsā¦your solutions and their solutions are different. Youāve said you want more of the kinds of solutions theyād call āradical socialismā. (I want those solutions too, but imo Democrats are already working on it, they just have an uphill battle against conservatives.) (And sure, many conservative workers probably just donāt realize that theyād love those solutions, too, but in the meantime theyāre duped into supporting the GOP and their worse, pro-some-industries, anti-other-industries solution.) Are you under the impression that the reason OāBrien isnāt capitulating to democrats is theyāre not embracing those solutions? Do you think that when OāBrien cozies to the GOP, that heās secretly trying to get the GOP on board with those solutions? When thereās negative evidence of that?
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid overĀ hugeĀ gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
If youāre trying to say that pro-worker policy is the bandaid, and widespread policies that provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, and unemployment areĀ yourĀ solution, then I donāt disagree, other than that pro-worker policy isnāt as much a band-aid at it is part of that solution. But if thatās OāBrienās solution, then heās a bad leader for helping the republicans who reject that solution. If thatās not OāBrienās solutionā¦then attacking his leadership isnāt āpunching leftā.
My premise is that, with respect to supporting a party that will support unions, itād be ludicrous to expect that support from the GOP, because theyāve been consistently anti-union for over 40 years.
Yeah, and Iām asserting that itās stupid to even consider endorsing the republican ticket, given how much worse republicans are for unions. Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company; threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
Yeah, they could offer better support for unionsā¦they could also offer to lower prescription drug prices and make school lunches free for grade schoolers. Theyāre not gonna do any of those things, b/c they donāt wanna do any of those things and they havenāt wanted to do any of those things in at least 40 years. Iāll accept cited evidence to the contrary, otherwise we can agree to disagree.
What specific issue do you take with the Democratic partyās support for unions? Do you refute my earlier link calling a Biden a good pro-union president, and if so can you provide sourced info to explain why?
Yeah
This feels like such a āno uā lol. What reasons does a group with specific labor interests have to endorse a party thatās been overly pro-company since Reagan?
Again, what policies specifically?
Look. I donāt know very much about Sean OāBrien. Iām not gonna accuse him of secretly being anti-union or any crazy bs like that. But if going to the RNC and not endorsing Harris are moves that benefits Republicans (it does), and if Republicans are worse on unions (they are), then whether he means to or not, heās hurting union workers. From that lens, AOC questioning his leadership isnāt punching left - sheās either punching a guy whoās actually to her right (for reasons outside workersā rights) or punching a guy who might as well be.
And one more thing: at the end of the day, sheās critical of the guy, not the mission. Sheās not saying āworkers shouldnāt have more protectionsā, sheās saying āI question the leadership of this guy whose job it is to get workers more protectionsā. And quite frankly I agree with that.
Edit: yāknow how I said I donāt know much about Sean OāBrien? Well thanks to another lemmyer, now I do!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/31/teamsters-racial-discrimination-lawsuit
So yeah, if thereās an ounce of truth to this, it speaks to the nagging feeling I have that heās the kind of guy whoās a probably secretly a conservative forā¦other reasons.
I came really close to getting sucked in to a D vs R labor relations debate, but this bit woke me up and stopped me:
I think this is where liberal understandings of union and labor relations as R or D policy agendas really gets in the way of a broader historical understanding of labor movements, and itās the reason Iām not particularly interested in having this debate with you. There have been many labor groups and unions in the USās history that have been on the wrong side of racial and civil rights issues. W.E.B. Du Bois described the relationship between American racism, slavery, and labor relations during and after slavery almost 100 years ago now. Hell, even as recently as the civil rights movement unions were split on the support of racial segregation in the south. Hereās one article from Herbert Hill written in '59 that discusses this issue pretty clearly.
Teamsters is a union of truck drivers. In American political terms, truckers are one of the most vocally conservative labor demographics in the US; it shouldnāt be surprising that there would be discrimination within it. But thatās exactly the problem with american political discourse. We cleave our working class apart with racial and social animosity at the expense of solidarity.
Without a broader understanding of material relations as fundamental to political movements, I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on this. It isnāt as simple as ādemocrats are more labor friendlyā - both parties are dominated by capitalist interests, even if one makes greater attempts to balance it with labor concessions. If labor is to gain any ground in the US, it needs to be party agnostic and be aggressive about negotiating with both parties.
I have a lot Iād like to, but wonāt, say about your comment, because itās very dismissive of my entire reply, in favor of you choosing to dissect my motivations for adding a loosely-related footnote. I will say that most of your comment feels like I could boil it down to āyou almost tricked me into taking your questions at face value, but then you said that OāBrien being racist might be sorta relevant, so clearly I have a broader understanding ofā¦somethingā¦then you, so youāll never see that Iām rightā. You could clarify if you want, but I donāt really care.
That said, Iāll try to focus on your last couple sentences:
If this is the entire point youāve been driving at this whole time, then I still disagree with you, but I can respect your opinion. You might be right that we wonāt see eye-to-eye, but not because of me probably not having a deeper understanding of āmaterial relations being fundamental to political movementsā, or you probably not having a deeper appreciation of āactual meat-and-bones policy being fundamental to the satisfaction of union members, both short-term and long-termā. I think you and I might just have different priorities, and Iām fine leaving it at that.
All that said, I wanna circle back one more time on the actual debate that started this thing, because it wasnāt āwhat is the direct course of action unions are justified in taking to optimize worker satisfactionā. It was literally something as nebulous as āDid AOC āpunch leftā by criticizing OāBrienā. OP already admitted he probably just chose the wrong words, which I respect. Can we at the very least agree, whether your personal answer to that question is yes or no, that suggesting AOC is āpunching leftā is a poorly-worded and/or insufficiently brief critique?
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness), but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
Yes, I still think it is punching left, and I think @the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works was mistaken in walking it back. It would be one thing if she was making a point to advocate for democratic policy choices, but the comment from AOC in question was:
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members. This was in response to them simply declining to endorse either candidate because they ācouldnāt get commitments on our issuesā. Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats even if you think theyāre wrong, and the worst way to respond to that feedback is to throw a tantrum and complain that theyāre being ungrateful.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left). What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue and involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Okay, Iāll take āmaybe even understandablyā.
Dude. SUPER pedantic.
I guess Iāll more or less repeat myself from earlier: Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company, but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
Okay, fine, you disagree. But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over? Yāknow, the kind of pedantry I feel like weāve been arguing over this whole time?
Depends on how you define āadvocating for its membersā. Signaling support for the political party most of your constituents align with, most definitely for reasons outside workersā rights, is one definition. Signalling support for the for the party thatāll actually help your constituents? Thatās another.
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some coreĀ assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating.
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
Because iām not privy to what the teamsters are asking for, but Iām personally frustrated that democrats keep burying their labor offerings in capital funding and investments. Democrats assume that they can make up for any loss of industry growth in one segment of the economy by promoting growth in another, but thatās not comforting to unions or unaffiliated industry workers in the rust belt, where thereās usually only one or two major job producers in their towns. Even if those jobs were being created in exactly the same place, loosing a job and having to change industry is incredibly destabilizing. Most Americans donāt have more than a couple thousand in savings, let alone a few months of expenses. Bragging about jobs created with the CHIPS act or other legislation isnāt comforting to people who live in towns that arenāt a recipient of that investment.
I think democrats need to expand social programs and remove pointless means-testing that excludes a lot of working families from benefits (and pits them against working class families in urban centers). The more socialized benefits available to small town workers, the less pressure there will be to remain employed in a dying industry. That includes childcare, healthcare, housing, food; basically everything theyāre afraid to campaign on because republicans will accuse them of being radical socialists. And they really need to stop responding to fears about job losses in small town industries by bragging about job creation in other industries.
The alternativeās are all less appealing to a socialist - a lot of unions are pushing tarrifs on foreign goods, cutting environmental regulation, ect. You canāt win those voters by creating jobs elsewhere - you really need to convince those voters that they arenāt going to be left behind if/when their townās industry goes belly-up, and saying ātough luck, move and change industriesā is only going to radicalize them further. Especially when unemployment benefits are covered in all kinds red tape and are exceedingly difficult to apply for and stay on.
As far as legislation specific to labor protections: they need to campaign on the legislation theyāve already put forward. The PRO act is an excellent bill, but iāve not heard Harris or any top democratic leadership actually campaign on it or push it in public.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job. Be grateful he didnāt follow the popular opinion of his members and endorse trump. I would also mention that their support of trump is pretty heavily represented in PA, WI, and MI - all states that democrats really need to win. They shouldnāt be burning bridges with Teamsters.
Labor protections are a definitionally-left issue. I want democrats to bend left
There absolutely is a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democrats at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
Donāt like my original analogue? Fine, replace āchoosing toā with āthreatening toā. The part youāre dancing around is the āmore exploitativeā part -the part where the side OāBrien is threatening to support isnāt a not-Dem-but-pro-union party, itās a not-Dem-but-anti-union party. And I suspect heās playing ball with them IN SPITE OF not having any appreciable consolidations made by republicans in favor of his union. Donāt bother suggesting āwe donāt know there werenāt consolidationsā, neither of us know. Though thereās plenty of indirect evidence that the modern GOP just doesnāt care - case in point, every party-line PRO Act vote in the past 5 years.
You make it sound like AOC is only frustrated with OāBrien for not endorsing Harris. From my very first comment in this thread: thatās not \all heās done*.
Your next 4 paragraphsā¦Iāll get back to those.
Then he should act like it and not help the leopards thatāll eat his face.
I wasnāt saying that was the disagreement, I was saying thereās some core disagreement we probably have, thatās probably flying under both our radars. And no, you havenāt magically identified what that is. I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
Back to those 4 paragraphsā¦finally, a little actual substance.
And you know what I have to say about it? I have to say that I actually feel even MORE strongly that OāBrien is a bad leader.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents. Trumpās last term saw him hire an anti-union Reagan-era lawyer to the NLRB, stacked the courts with anti-union judges, took various other anti-union actions, and neither him nor any Republicans proposed a single page of legislation. They didnāt even support the PRO Act, legislation that helps unions everywhere, rust belt included, and was introduced even before Dems took back the WH (meaning Democrats didnāt stand to look good if it got passed). And the GOP still voted heavily against it, and have done so ever since.
Biden might not be perfect in your eyes, but he immediately fired Trumpās NLRB appointee and the similarly minded deputy replacing them them with a pro-union labor lawyer who took on captive audience meetings, non-compete clauses, and consequential damages. And like I already said, it was DEMOCRATS whoāve been pushing for the PRO Act this whole timeā¦and yes, Harris has campaigned on signing the PRO Act, fyi.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people? Denying Trump an endorsement doesnāt go far enough - OāBrien either shouldnātāve gone to the RNC, or shouldāve flipped the bird at everybody there. Donāt just leave an endorsement out of your speech - actually say āI wanna endorse you, but you fuckers are letting us downā. I could see that acknowledging their incompetence to their faces MAYBE moving the needle on the GOP, or at least, itād be a respectable attempt.
I get you feel like unions need bipartisan support to make a permanent, lasting difference. And yāknow what? I think I agree with you on that. But that doesnāt mean I agree that itās worth giving the modern GOP anything, so much as an RNC speech, now. They should work for it. BY ACTUALLY VOTING ON PRO-UNION POLICIES AND ACTIONS. Then, it makes sense to play both sides. Until then, let them know that theyāre not getting an ounce of support.
That was the hypothetical side of the analogue. Them announcing that they wonāt be endorsing is similar to a union announcing negotiations have failed and they going on strike - an action that materially damages their companyās income and is (in some ways) a violent means to escalating the issue. The union is definitionally an appendage of its parent company; them āleaving to work for a different companyā just doesnāt make sense, itād be like an arm cutting itself off at the shoulder.
āNonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.ā
If any action that hurts a democratic campaign is outside the bounds of acceptable direct action to you, then this is precisely where our disagreement is. Electing not to endorse the democratic ticket is the lightest possible criticism one could possibly make.
Look, I already told you I had no interest in having this debate with you. We are clearly not seeing eye to eye.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned with their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiate with.
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it, but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democrats have proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦ And those are simple, believable solutions to their problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to get their bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid over huge gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
To address your first 3 paragraphsā¦youāre acting like all I care about is OāBrienās non endorsement. I guess Iāll spell out the thing Iāve said in every single comment on this thread: Not endorsing democrats = fine. Not endorsing democrats + speaking at the RNC and NOT directly calling them out on their bs = fucking stupid. You keep treating the non-endorsement like itās in a vacuum. And you can disagree with my math, but if you continue to pretend that this isnāt what Iām saying, then youāre just straw-manning me.
Yes, itās understandable that workers feel like they wonāt survive if their industry diesā¦but in the specific case of coal, the solution isnāt to bolster that industry. Much of the solution is to create new jobs in growing industries that coal workers could transfer into, and to set guarantees that those new jobs arenāt exploitative. Democrats have fought, withĀ real action,Ā to do both the former, and the latter (I wonāt source the latter again, read any of my pro-union sources).
Yes, and not only do they campaign on it - they consistently vote in favor of it. But go on.
Yes, I get their fear. And thatās why the liberal solution to those fears is making it easier to switch jobs and to provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, unemployment, all on top of pro-worker reformā¦all LEFT-LEANING policies that the modern GOP will NEVER ENDORSE.
It sounds like youāre just trying to explain what many workers see as the solution. They think the tried-and-true solution is to bolster their industries, instead of all the stuff I just listed. But thatās a conservative solution to the problem.
It sounds like you want the democrats to have liberal policies in general, which is what I want too. But what, in your head, does OāBrien want? If he wants conservative industry-first policies, then AOC isnāt punching left at the guy, end of story. And if heĀ actuallyĀ wants liberal, boosting-quality-of-life-policies (the kinds of policies I want and you seem to want), then heās an idiot or a coward, or both, for not getting mad at the modern GOP for spinning all of that negatively as socialism.
Youāre not addressing the subtlety that whileĀ theyĀ feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutions, and whileĀ youĀ seem to feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutionsā¦your solutions and their solutions are different. Youāve said you want more of the kinds of solutions theyād call āradical socialismā. (I want those solutions too, but imo Democrats are already working on it, they just have an uphill battle against conservatives.) (And sure, many conservative workers probably just donāt realize that theyād love those solutions, too, but in the meantime theyāre duped into supporting the GOP and their worse, pro-some-industries, anti-other-industries solution.) Are you under the impression that the reason OāBrien isnāt capitulating to democrats is theyāre not embracing those solutions? Do you think that when OāBrien cozies to the GOP, that heās secretly trying to get the GOP on board with those solutions? When thereās negative evidence of that?
If youāre trying to say that pro-worker policy is the bandaid, and widespread policies that provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, and unemployment areĀ yourĀ solution, then I donāt disagree, other than that pro-worker policy isnāt as much a band-aid at it is part of that solution. But if thatās OāBrienās solution, then heās a bad leader for helping the republicans who reject that solution. If thatās not OāBrienās solutionā¦then attacking his leadership isnāt āpunching leftā.