- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
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Rip. Time to delete all my standard notes.
Seriously curious: why is that?
I don’t trust Proton at all, and Obsidian is a nicer experience for this anyway. I had a ton of old notes, and now that a new owner is taking them all, it’s time for me to delete my account and move on.
Mixed feelings on this, as a user of simplelogin, proton and standard notes as individual services for the last 4+ years I love them all, and trust proton.
However one of the key reasons for choosing those services was they were isolated, and without risk of vendor lock in or single points of failure… Depending how this goes it could be great, I just hope they don’t force/push integration with proton too much. Maybe I’m just being a FUD pusher. Certainly equally a chance this is great for both proton and StandardNotes. SN has lacked development on a fair few plugins recently so hopefully this aids that.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
In a press release announcing the move, Proton emphasized the pair’s “shared values,” including the use of E2EE; a commitment to open-source technology; and how neither has relied upon venture capital to drive growth.
This includes building on its first acquisition — email alias startup SimpleLogin, which it acquired in 2022 — as well as developing and launching fully fledged password manager app Proton Pass in June.
So the company is evidently not allergic to user acquisition and other consolidation-based growth opportunities where it sees enough philosophical overlap plus the chance to deepen its technical bank.
“The deal is a strategic decision designed to benefit users by bringing to market secure, easy to use, private products that anyone can access,” Proton wrote.
“Standard Notes and Proton engineers will begin working together immediately to ensure their combined skills and experience bear fruit for users as soon as possible.”
Asked about the sustainability of pro-privacy business models that don’t rely on exploitation of user data — when so much of mainstream tech still continues to roll in the opposite, data-mining direction — Yen emphasized the need for long-term thinking by privacy startups.
The original article contains 967 words, the summary contains 190 words. Saved 80%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I don’t trust Proton. Avoid it at all costs, they’re expanding and want money. Your data is at risk!
So… this was the plan of the Standard Notes guys all along? Now it makes sense why they never made open-source and self-hosting a true priority.
Let’s see what Proton does with this, but I personally believe they’ll just integrate it in Proton and further close things even more. The current subscription-based model, docker container and whatnot might disappear as well. Proton is a greedy company that doesn’t like interoperability and likes to add features designed in a way to keep people locked their Web UI and applications.
Standard Notes for self-hosting was already mostly dead due to the obnoxious subscription price, but it is a well designed App with good cross-platform support and I just wish the Joplin guy would take a clue on how to design UIs from them instead of whatever they’re doing now that is ugly and barely usable.
Doesn’t proton open source everything they do? Iirc, proton mail, calendar, vpn, drive, and simplelogin are open source under GPL v3 on github.
Yes the clients are open source but the server part is closed and it’s a big missing part
Now, better to be 50% oss than 0%, but it’s not a community effort. Most commits are done behind the scenes and then published when app is released. This causes most pull releases to be rejected as the problem was already fixed internally months before. It’s more like “source available”
There’s no vendor lock in until you realize your emails are essentially hostage of their apps and a bridge that may be shutdown at any point. If you can’t simply setup a regular email client then there’s vendor lock in, not even Microsoft does that.
They say the reason for needing their bridge is the encryption at rest, but I feel like the better way to handle wanting to push email privacy forward would be to publish (or better yet coordinate with other groups on drafting) a public standard that both clients and competing email servers could adopt for an email syncing protocol for that sort of zero-access encryption that requires users give their client a key file. A bridge would be easier to swallow as a fallback option until there’s wider client support rather than as the only way.
A similar standard for server-to-server communication, like for automatic pgp key negotiation, would be nice too.
Still, Proton has a easy to access data export that doesn’t require a bridge client or subscription or anything. I think that’s required by GDPR. It’s manual enough to not be an effective way to keep up-to-date backups in case you ever abruptly lose access but it’s good enough to handle wanting to migrate to another provider.
I agree 100% with your ideia. The best path for this would’ve been for them to actually design that system you describe and THEN implement it on Dovecot and Postfix in their own fork or a Dovecot extension / Postfix add-on so others would start using them. Eventually after some times and other providers also optionally supporting the thing an RFC could be written. This is the usual course we see with protocols/extensions and is what should’ve happened here.
I want to share another thing, before Snowden there was Lavabit, they also did “encryption at rest” and the user password involved for some parts of the information and it was proven to be effective. It wasn’t a perfect model but it was certainly better than the havoc Proton did to e-mail by opening the precedent that is okay not to run on standard protocols.
What Proton is doing to e-mail is about the same that WhatsApp, Messenger and others did to messaging - instead of just using an open protocol like XMPP they opted for their closed thing in order to lock people into their apps. People in this community seem to be okay with this just because they sell the “privacy” cool-aid.
server-to-server communication, like for automatic pgp key negotiation, would be nice too.
I’m not sure if this is required. Any decent e-mail server uses TLS to communicate these days, so everything in transit is already encrypted.
Still, Proton has a easy to access data export that doesn’t require a bridge client or subscription or anything. I think that’s required by GDPR.
Yes, they have it because GDPR does require it. It works, but it’s not a real time sync alternative to anything and it is some kind of vendor lock-in.
As I said in other comments, not using standard protocols only makes thing worse. I used iOS as an example, for Android you can get a bridge but that’s just going to be one more thing going for your battery.
Now, consider this, there’s a TON of situation where having a standard SMTP-capable provider is interesting. Maybe you’re running in iOS, maybe you want to have an ESP32 to send a few emails, or some custom software in your computer. All those use cases are impossible or require more coding and more non-standard solutions just because Proton decided to be the first provider ever not to use standard protocols.
Do you have a privacy oriented email provider alternative to proton?
I have my domain name, but I don’t want to manage an email server on my server.
Maybe one listed at https://www.privacytools.io/privacy-email or https://european-alternatives.eu/category/email-providers ?
Please don’t use privacytools.io anymore. Use privacyguides.org instead
Huh? This is not true. Proton have an app that exports all your emails for reimport into the platform of your choice.
Proton’s alternative to Google Docs getting closer? 👀
It will really hard or impossible to reach the level of development that ms and google have in their cloud collaborative products. They don’t have the resources like the mentioned two monsters.
A single coder made photopea which is near feature parity of photoshop. I think the Proton team can figure out a docs suite
It may require intense passion and a manic episode to do something like that with one coder or a small team, which is hard to arrange bureaucratically.
Or a burning hatred of proprietary systems
I was really dissatisfied that notes are always somehow weirdly shared with a propriatary backend. There is jtx Board which uses your CalDAV calendar (Nextcloud, Radicale, etc.) as a backend which is really cool. The UI is also OK, but there seems to be no (Linux) desktop app for that.
So I started https://github.com/jeena/JNotes because I was curious about developing for GNOME anyway. It’s going very slowly - because I am a stay at home dad with a one year old who demands all my attention :D - but it’s going forward, but I guess it’ll take another year before it’s usable ^^.
Actually I was hoping that there would be more notes apps using standard backends like CalDAV or IMAP, but it’s almost impossible to find something, everyone seems to want to implement their own backend and then charge for the synchronization.
None of those standards are e2e
As long as you host it yourself it doesn’t matter.
It’s not reasonable to assume that most people are going to self-host, or even how to go about doing that if they wanted to, but people still deserve a right to privacy and products that support that. I think that’s what they were trying to say
