Awoo [she/her]

Has the fastfetch dev ever mentioned why they use the infinity symbol? Don’t want to find out later on that it’s a dogwhistle.

It’s not just an “ML position”, in fact it’s not an ML position at all and there is no ML party with that position. Your attempts to frame it as one are sus.

People are going to continue starting this shit. It’s up to hexbear to not make it end up…well, like this.

You. You’re the “people”. You are saying “I’m going to do this more”.

Really don’t be surprised when this completely derails into hostility and destroys any kind of positive relationship you attempted to build. Anyway I’m disengaging now. Please don’t call me back in here.

I think everyone looks fucking ridiculous. You, me, everyone. There is never and there has never been a single sectarian argument where everyone involved did not look like a clown.

Which is precisely why people should not even start that shit.

The right does split like the left. Hell, sometimes they’re straight up shooting each other.

Extremely rarely, although that is what is occurring in Spain right now.

Look, everyone has their own experiences. I know plenty of anarchists who won’t even go near MLs because of how extremely traitorous they are right now. You don’t come where I come from. You don’t know my experiences. Some anarchists mistrusts MLs with very good reasons and that’s fine. And it’s also fine to shitpost about it in an anarchist forum without having half of hexbear come in like a rampage of sealions.

The people for left-unity are going to feel attacked by anti-left-unity posting. This is just a fact.

When people feel attacked the result of that shouldn’t really be that surprising, should it? Especially when the spread of that rhetoric would actively harm hexbear. People are going to be protective of something they see as integral to the only space on the internet that they feel safe.

I think the problem here is that this “shitposting” comes off as… Completely anti collaboration?

That’s why it’s a problem. Maybe you’re in favour of collaboration. But do younger anarchists realise that? Does the general bulk of the numbers realise that? Or is this kind of posting actually working entirely against the left overall because it splits us? Because a significant portion of people genuinely take it to heart and believe it. How many spaces actively purge marxists now because of “aaaaaa tankies”? That’s occurring because of this kind of propaganda. Is it helping anyone? Fuck no it’s not. Look at every single lemmy community where we’ve been purged, are they better? They’re far right shit holes even if there’s a handful of people trying to change that, they’re utterly dominated by the worst people.

If the right split like the left does we’d be in power in half of europe.

No. There fundamentally is not.

This space is not “pretend” while the offline world is “real”. The people here are real people (I hope lmao) and the emotions people have here are real.

One day we will all be thrown into our own very real resistance. Are you willing to die for it? I am. I’ve said many times that I will die in bed an old lady in a currently non-existent socialist state or I will die in the fighting to bring it about.

We post here and have some fun and argue and do all sorts of shit in our off time. But in our on time? A lot of us are genuinely active in political orgs. Here in the UK it might be resisting landlord evictions through Acorn, performing party work or shutting down weapons factories through Palestine Action. Do you think sectarianism would benefit orgs like Palestine Action shutting down zionist weapons factories? Whose principle need is BODIES willing to get on rooftops and smash up these buildings and get arrested? Does reducing the pool of people that would join that org benefit them in any way by being sectarians? Does it matter whether someone on the roof of an israeli weapons factory waves a black flag or a red flag? Of course it doesn’t. And the people who try to flare up sectarian bullshit anywhere are rightfully shouted down or expelled because all they are functionally doing by punching left is weakening those orgs and their ability to do praxis.

That doesn’t change online. The number of people who actually transfer from the online space to offline organising is directly tied to the sectarian bullshit that occurs. There are dumbass marxists that refuse to take part at certain orgs because of some anarchist sectarian bullshit and there are dumbass anarchists that refuse to take part in some socialist led things because of sectarian bullshit.

If I saw anyone at the march in London this weekend say a single fucking word about sectarian shit I would have punched them in the face.

This shit hurts the left. There is no case for it benefiting the left in any way.

One day we will all be in an existential armed struggle ourselves. Really consider the priorities. There is no benefit to any of this shit, and in fact it risks harming support for Palestine. I assume you’re not anti-Palestine, even though you won’t state it. If you can support Palestinian resistance despite Hamas, you can support marxist-leninists despite sectarian disagreement, and you already are doing just that by supporting Palestine. Not to mention that almost every single fucking pro Palestine march currently happening is being organised by the “tankies” you’re currently railing against.

Oh and just in case - anyone that doesn’t support Palestine deserves a brick to the back of the head.

The vast majority of the people here found their way into the left through learning in the online posting grounds before eventually joining orgs. Anyone that thinks what we do online doesn’t matter is not really thinking straight.

You didn’t really answer the question though and it concerns me. Are you opposed to the Palestinian resistance currently fighting for freedom?

I honestly find this behaviour incredibly disrespectful to the people that are currently dying as they do real resistance. Are you opposed to the Palestinians too then? The leftist brigades of Palestine are all “tankies” and Hamas are considerably worse (but resistance is more important than broaching the issues with them). Do you wage sectarian bullshit against them too from your comfortable room while they fight and die for the cause? Serious question.

If your action is to punch left, your output is to move the current situation rightwards.

This goes for both anarchists and lemmygrad types, who equally harm the collective movement by punching left at one another.

If the marxist brigades, (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine(DFLP), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command (PFLP-GC)) in Palestine can prioritise the need for cooperation even with hamas in order to put up a resistance against oppression, we can all do the same when we have fewer reasons to fight.

https://youtu.be/90AAcSvJAl0

This nazi propaganda again. I stopped reading at the first sentence and I’m blocking you. You’re a nazi and there’s literally no point in conversing with someone that is so blatantly acting in bad faith. If this conversation happened on the street with basically anyone here in Manc you’d be bricked over the back of the head.

Please. There are so many examples of modern Communists claiming that the USSR and PRC aren’t “true communism” that’s it’s become a meme.

Yeah? Which ones. Name a single major communist party.

You are not referring to communists. You are referring to people like yourself, who are uneducated morons that don’t actually do any politics, but instead engage in politics as a source of entertainment through media. It’s a spectator sport for you, you’re not a participant, and neither are the “”“communists”“” that you claim oppose these things. There are a handful of trotskyist parties of relevance in the world today, and while some of those are critical of China and the Stalin period of the USSR they still uphold it other than Stalin. Even Trotsky himself wrote that he would have done everything Stalin did anyway.

If you’re not in orgs, you’re simply not a participant. If you’re not doing something, you’re not a communist. You’re a spectator and a non-participant.

What actually organising communists have this position? They don’t. Because you’re fucking wrong mate.

No I meant Khazaks. The Holodomor killed the Kulaks and news of it got out to the West so it got the headlines. But the same Collective Farming experiments were tried im Khazakstsn and led to mass starvation that killed over half the native population.

Stop saying holodomor dumbass it’s literally the word that nazis gave to the specifically Ukrainian part of the great famine as a means of playing down the holocaust and playing down the larger famine that happened at the time. I already told you to stop being a fucking nazi.

This region had a famine every 5 years for 1000 years and this was the last ever famine to occur in the region, thanks to the soviets.

Most modern Communists don’t view the USSR or PRC as examples of Communism.

Yes they do. You do not know any modern communists. I don’t think you could name a single serious communist party that does not acknowledge the USSR and PRC. Not in the west and certainly not in the global south where they are significantly less critical and more supportive of both.

You constantly demonstrate a distinct lack of any interaction with any actual real communists. Your entire knowledge of everything is through white western liberal circlejerking. You have never been a member of a party, or a union, or even a tenants organisation. You have never done any real organising. You are not and never have been a communist.

I can’t defend a Soviet Empire that caused the pain and suffering it did in Eastern Europe and Asia.

For the love of god I am begging you to read Blackshirts and Reds. Or sit through the yellow Parenti lecture on youtube. You’re just unfathomably wrong about this. These were feudal prior to the revolutions, living conditions were considerably worse.

Life expectancy does not go up when people’s lives are getting worse. What are you failing to understand about this?

Doing thing like killing half of all living Khazaks over a few years by intentionally starving them at scale

I have literally no idea what you’re talking about. This is either some utter bullshit that you’ve made up on the spot or another demonstration of your lack of much understanding of the topic because what you probably meant to say here was kulaks. What’s funny about that however is that you’re trying to imply that is ethnic killing in some way when kulak just means rich wealthy farm owners, the claim that kulaks were “intentionally starved” is nonsense, they were rich. They were dispossessed and forcefully collectivised.

Holodomor and the Great Leap Forward which killed more people than the Holocaust

“DAE communism is worse than nazism?” here you are giving away what you really support, you are a fascist upset at the fact communists defeated the nazis. Nobody within their right mind thinks this, not anyone that knows anything about the topics. Only fascists spread this shit, because it benefits them. Not only that, but it’s an antisemitic trope known as Double Genocide Theory.

If you’re NOT a nazi, I strongly recommend you stop hanging around with nazis, because half the shit you are spewing is literally nazi propaganda and will get you accused of being one by anyone that understands these topics. You were upset at your ban? It’s because you look like a literal nazi.

I also suggest you stop going around professing that you know a lot about communism and used to be one. You clearly don’t. It’s embarrassing. I get second hand embarrassment every time I read something you’re trying to bullshit your way through, it’s incredibly obvious and you just need to stop.

Do you believe Democracy was “Upgraded” in those places?

100% yes. If you do not then you simply have no idea what the democratic structure was and how that resulted in more democratic outcomes. You have a singleminded attitude that the design of liberal democracy - a multi party system where the people that promise to implement the policies that the largest donors want end up in power, where they do exactly what those people want - is the only thing that should be called “democracy”.

The soviet system was democratic. But this democracy has a different structure to the liberal democracy.

Instead of voting for leaders and then locals. The whole structure is built on smaller locals. Typically you will personally know the candidate. The people elect via agreement with the candidate or not. Then the members of the local soviet(council) vote on who will represent that council at the next tier up, and then those the tier up, and so on and so forth all the way up to the national supreme congress which then elects the politburo and so on. This is democratic.

You can’t claim you like Cuba but that you dislike the electoral system in these other places. They’re literally the same. All of them were based on the soviet system.

You ask me do I think they’re more democratic and I ask you why 95% of the Chinese population is happy with and supports their government while less than 40% is happy with their government in most liberal democracies. Which of these systems is producing happier people? Which of them is producing a more democratic outcome in the eyes of its people? You can not use the racist claim this is propaganda, or brainwashing, because the study I’m citing for it specifically states that is NOT what drives the Chinese people’s support for their government, conducted by Harvard, as a 30 year independent study.

I literally liked to Lenin’s interpretation. Lenin literally followed that interpretation. How is it not Lenin’s interpretation?

Re-read what I said to you.

Because they don’t over time. The conclusion of WW2 gave us the ability to observe the development of nations over time split into two with one half being Communist and the other being Capitalist. West/East Germany, North/South Korea, pretty clear record there.

I’ve literally shown you a study that says the opposite read the fucking things you’re being sent or you won’t get another response because you are not participating in good faith, it is a waste of my time and you’re a fucking dickbag for being so rude and disrespectful.

Bringing Korea into this is fucking absurd. The US performed a genocide there killing 20% of the entire population and razed the country to the ground, 95% of all buildings were turned to rubble, and the south was then occupied with a dictatorship regime that carried out mass killings. The south has been under US military occupation ever since. Their country is on its FIFTH republic because the occupation state has collapsed so many times and been couped EVERY time by US backed dickbags. The population of Korea wants to unite, but the north and south can not, because every attempt at doing so the US demands a seat at the table where they then scupper the talks. As for East Germany, it had no industrial base and was the least developed and most damaged in the war? You’re not comparing anything on an equal footing at all. You want an equal comparison? China and India were both equal, roughly the same population size and level of development at the end of ww2. Which system has developed the country better and provided for the people?

Let me leave you with this. Do you without the benefit of hindsight in the 1920s would you have been a Czarist/Cossack or a Soviet?

100% a soviet??? Are you out of your fucking mind? Have you actually ever looked at what the state of feudal russia was under the tsars? Lenin and the soviet revolution are some of the most unambiguous heroes of history and only a complete and totally incorrect understanding of what Russia was before and after could lead you to think otherwise. You want to support an average lifespan of 30 years old and not the improvement to 70 the soviets brought? You’re fucking stupid mate. Dumb as a bag of rocks.

Would you have fled to Taiwan or stayed in China in 1945?

Once again you’re out of your fucking mind. The average lifespan in China was 33 years old when the CPC launched the revolution. The average lifespan improved DURING the revolution, civil war and invasion by the Japanese because the liberation communists were bringing to the population was better than the life they had before.

How the fuck do you think revolutions happen? How the fuck do you think communists get popular support? Magic? Through people just believing that things will eventually in the future be better? Are you fucking mad? People in these conditions support what will bring an IMMEDIATE improvement to their conditions. And that’s exactly what revolution brought.

Your grasp of history is tenuous and you are completely and totally propagandised. You have never engaged with these topics in any critical fashion and it shows.

I think you may have meant to use a different adjective there.

Nope. If you don’t understand what vulgar means in the political context you’re demonstrating further lack of political literacy, particularly as “vulgar marxism” is a term any communist (as you claimed to have been once) should be quite familiar with. But I think at this point in the conversation you’re realising just how obviously bullshit that claim is to any actual communists.

“Dictatorship” doesn’t mean the same thing when Marx uses it vs what you understand the word to mean. Marx is talking about a dictatorship of CLASS. IE a large group of people within society. In liberal democracy the “ruling class” are the bourgeoisie, the capitalists, the billionaires and millionaires. They are the ruling class because when they led the revolutions to overthrow feudalism they designed the new system so that they would be the ruling class. That’s how it works. A dictatorship of CLASS.

Marx calls for exactly the same thing. A revolution that overthrows the current ruling class and installs a new ruling class. When the bourgeoisie overthrew the monarchs and their aristocracy they installed themselves as the ruling class, Marx calls for overthrowing the bourgeoisie and installing the proletariat as the new ruling class.

This isn’t a downgrade to democracy it is an UPGRADE to democracy. The current system only produces the results that the bourgeoisie wants. Socialism on the other hand with the proletariat in charge produces the results that the proletariat want.

My interpretation of it is essentially Lenin and Mao’s interpretation of it, just with the benefits of historical hindsight.

No it isn’t because your description above is fucking wrong. I’m telling you what Lenin and Mao’s interpretation is literally right now. This is basic as fuck stuff.

Who controls that dictatorship has all the effective powers of a dictatorship and has the ability to make life for the people they rule hell.

You’re acting like socialist countries don’t objectively provide a better quality of life than capitalist countries when compared at an equal level of development lmao. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/

Your understanding of any of these topics is incredibly vulgar. A warped and contorted understanding that you’ve only learned through extremely passive engagement with the topic.

Yeah so you’re avoiding everything I said and injecting a completely different topic that you also don’t understand.

Marx’s critique isn’t with democracy it’s with bourgeoise-democracy. You would understand this if you understood even the basic bare minimum about marxist theory. All you are doing here is demonstrating that you do not understand the difference between what marxists refer to as a bourgeoise-democracy and what marxists refer to as a proletarian-democracy. Or if you prefer, the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie vs the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Marx’s “opposition to democracy” that you are utilising for bullshit propaganda here is opposition to using the mechanisms of bourgeoise-democracy to achieve socialism (because they’re designed for the bourgeoisie and to produce outcomes the bourgeoisie want) and instead advocates for revolution to destroy that dictatorship-of-class and install a new democracy of the workers, a new dictatorship of class but one instead run by the working class (the vast majority) instead of the former ruling class (the bourgeoisie, the vast minority).

These are incredibly basic 101 concepts that, if you were a communist as you claim, you would already be aware of and understand. You were not a communist. You haven’t even read a pamphlet like the manifesto, let alone the Critique Gotha Programme that you’re linking to. I have though. And to anyone that actually HAS read these things that you’re pretending to have read you look like and absolute clown who is winging it.

I’m saying I don’t believe you’ve ever engaged with communism. I don’t believe you’ve read a single book. I don’t believe you’ve even read a single pamphlet. I don’t think you could give me a simplified breakdown of what historical materialism is and I don’t believe you could tell me what the 5 basic classes are that marxists define, along with a simple 1 sentence description of their scientific definition. I don’t think you were a communist and I don’t think you know anything about the “historical record of communism” beyond what you have passively consumed from the far right wing fuckwads that you’ve surrounded yourself with and allowed to rot your brain. I’m saying that the confident manner in which you bullshit about these things is a severe personal failing.

All of these are 101 things that anyone who has actually engaged with the topic of socialism for more than like 1 single week would be able to answer instantly and easily.

I’m saying that your political opinions and knowledge of history is based on vibes that you have attained from the massive quantity of propaganda you uncritically consume and not from any actual meaningful knowledge.

Clear enough?

This is what happens when everything you know is based on vibes instead of actually reading any theory or history from primary source historians instead of third.

That’s not a socialist state. It’s a capitalist state with welfare. If the political structure of the state itself has not been reworked to put the workers in power what you’re describing is just a state where the bourgeoisie (who control power) have decided to do welfare, usually for their own benefit such as reducing revolutionary energy by providing the workers with concessions (the welfare state). That is social democracy.

You do not have socialism without overthrowing the hierarchy that places the bourgeoisie as the ruling class:

Capitalism = Capitalists in power. Proles repressed.

Socialism = Proletariat in power. Capitalists repressed.

Communism = No more classes, only 1 class because the bourgeoisie have been completely phased out.

Viewing it entirely in economics is incorrect. All of the above can be done under capitalism. The key difference is not what form of economics are employed but which class controls power and puts the resources of the state to use.

The capitalist state is a state where capital owners hold power and use that power to exploit more capital.

The socialist state is a transitionary state in which the workers have seized power and use the state to repress the bourgeoisie and put resources to their own use.

The communist state is what occurs when capitalism is entirely defeated, all nations are socialist, conflict is eliminated and material abundance is achieved, at which point states start to stop existing as the resources within them that are put towards repressing the bourgeoisie through violence are put towards other things when there is only 1 class in society.

Capitalism is the state controlled by the capital owners with the workers repressed.

Socialism is the state controlled by the workers with the capital owners repressed.

They are literally hard opposites. One is a bourgeoise-state and the other is a proletarian-state.