For you true, for me somewhat true. Do you live in the region? If you talk to the average IRL person, they are far less informed about the history than you and I are (go figure), and they don’t read it that way.

Those are absolutely way cooler and more meaningful, if I had an actual platform it would be the first order of business to pick one of these.

Actually, it would be the second order of business after establishing relationships with indigenous leadership. Demographics mean that a socialist PNW movement will be very white, and we can’t just appropriate shit and move on without the underlying relationship.

Might change my avatar to something like this, but at the same time I like stirring the controversy (gently) and getting the whole discussion out there. This isn’t the first time someone has brought up the region’s white nationalist background (I brought it up myself in the first post on this account!), and every discussion is an educational opportunity for the observer.

Maybe I’ll make another account with a cool fish flag avi that always calls out this account from the left as a bit.

Hey haven’t checked this account in a bit, but it’s cool we’re on the same wavelength.

It is something that comes up from a pnw perspective:

• does “Cascadia” go independent?
• join up with CA?
• join up with Canada?

Each has their own consequence and outcome.

In a conversation with people who are left of liberal, it offers an easy off ramp from the discussion being contained by the “US American” framework. It offers them to consider “the US is shit, and anything good (universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness to start) goes to Washington DC to die, what i lived in a country worth fighting for?”.

Immediate follow up would be: “remember though in an actual civil war situation we (anyone left of Reagan) all fucking die, so we aren’t actually doing this” also “I’m down to rework the flag, but I’m glad we’re having this conversation instead of arguing about voting for Kamala”.

Remember that this is DemSoc shit, so there’s plenty to argue and discuss from the left. I already know this because I am left of being a demsoc as well.

Once you put a a bunch of distance from the American framework, it’s much easier to talk about historical revolutions and modern economic models that actually managed to achieve something.

I think Hexbear is decent at theory and material analysis, but this community has always been severely lacking at propaganda and ideological warfare. Materialism is more important and interesting anyway, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for working within the idealist framework. It doesn’t drive history, but it exists and steers it,especially in liberal settler states.

Speaking of the liberal, settler, imperial core, I think we need to keep in mind that true revolutionary socialism will not be born and bred here. A more material outlook prompts us to weaken the empire and give our comrades in the global south an opportunity to liberate themselves. What better way to weaken the empire than balkanization?(Even to a small extent) We joke about it all the time (or is it serious? Idk sometimes with this site).

Then why not start by just not using it?

I’m curious if you live in the region yourself. It would make more sense if you do.

It’s like trying to reclaim the swastika or confederate flag.

Not correct at all, it’s much more similar to reclaiming the US flag. I know that’s not popular with this community either, and it’s something that I think is extremely cringe as well (seeing liberals carry it around and such), but it also isn’t the same as a swastika. Nobody perceives it that way besides a dozen kkk boomers out in baker city. Local urbanites don’t have a single clue about it (which is not a good thing).

Furthermore, the flag has never represented an actual movement or country in the way of Nazi Germany or the CSA. It’s known as a “flag people fly at soccer games” unless you dig through Wikipedia or you live in “greater Idaho”. It actually is eligible to be reappropriated, in this case.

Have you actually consulted with indigenous people on this matter?

No because this isn’t a movement, it’s a rhetorical tool as far as I’m concerned. If someone were to approach me and try and make it real, I’d immediately adopt your perspective and continue the discussion form there.

If tomorrow I were made the chair of the Cascadia Workers’ Party in some alternate universe, it would of course be my responsibility to approach indigenous leadership, develop relationships, and offer them representation.

It simply doesn’t, that’s not what pretty much anyone would understand it to be.

Not exactly off topic comrade, and important to discuss. I’ve noted most of my thoughts here, maybe start with the last couple sections, as they relate to your post: https://hexbear.net/comment/5576727

My use of “Cascadia” imagery has a lot more to do with appropriating this:

The Doug Flag as it is known is a misguided attempt by some white lib with a fundamental misunderstanding of anti-racism and very suspiciously chose the exact colors of the explicitly white supremacist flag that preceded it.

Than the white nationalism part ofc.

As other indigenous comrades put it, the movement is at best tone def and has done very little to seek indigenous input and seems to be more a reorganization of colonial power than a rejection of it, and at worst it is used by cryptofascists to try to reignite the white separatist movement. If

Agree, all valid. I personally have strong anti-colonial convictions and a strong inclination toward indigenous liberation. I spend more time talking about these topics than I do talking about “Cascadia” itself. To me, I am using it as an offramp from Americanism and an onramp to democratic socialism (something, something. Allende), anti- colonialism (the US can’t help themselves but exploit, this makes it both dangerous and unethical to take part in the imperial system), and indigenous rights (“a key part of a ‘Cascadia culture’, were it to exist, would be respect for indigenous people and stewardship of the environment, wouldn’t it?”).

I actually think that all these topics are super important to our region, I’m tired of it always being “Trump’s bullshit of the day” and :vote:ing. In a way I’m happy that there is some entanglement with the white nationalist history because it offers an opportunity to discuss!

You may disagree with the approach, but I hope you at least see where I’m coming from. Also I’d love to toss out the flag and the name and start over with the “People’s Federated Socialist Republic of the Salish lands”, but people see the Doug flag at soccer games and whatever so it’s an easier starting point.

As a Democratic socialist account my hope is that the US can transition to democratic socialism (or more likely, social democracy) in a managedd way. There will be no revolution here, and socialism will arrive last at the imposition of a socialist global order.

Agree, although in the “among comrades” discussion we should understand that the free trade that comes from open internal borders is what keeps most state and local economies functioning. Disrupting this could cause issues, but that’s not to say that it shouldn’t happen and can’t be managed if it did happen.

True, and I would agree the nuclear weapons aspect should be considered carefully (among comrades in a hypothetical situation where something is actually happening). I don’t think “dollar hegemony” is going to come up for a normie-lib, but if it does, it at least advances the conversation outside of electoralism and “trump bad” and gives you something to work with.

This is the question that normie-liberals need to face: “If Trump is dismantling the US government, what’s the point of even participating in all this shit anyway?”. It may be the first time they’re actually thinking “outside the box” ever, since there isn’t any canned reply that they’ve been fed by the media or other sources (yet).

Among comrades I think it provokes an interesting and nuanced discussion about what the consequences of that sort of move would be and what form it should or could take. For the normie-liberals (not or lightly online, no formal power) it’s just going to have to be beaten over their heads until they start to get that the existence of the US is holding them back from everything they want and more.

As for “what is to be done?” couldn’t say cause all paths toward actual secession lead to civil war, and the left loses that 100/100 times without decades of preparation. However, any amount of internal disunity toward the US stretches the empire thinner and gives more room for the global south to make some moves.

They do the “make the news into 24 entertainment” thing here on cable news and stuff so a lot of “normies” are permanently brain poisoned even if they don’t log on.

Unless you can easily infiltrate leadership, there’s not much you can do. Libs generally aren’t going to be swayed if their leadership isn’t on board.

In small orgs, this is easier than you probably expect. As soon as they use the word “socialism” (to mean Scandinavian social democracy) you’re able to be the coolest and most knowledgeable socialist in the room cause you’ve read theory etc. The key is to be polite even if they’re being annoyingly lib, but at that point you’re golden.

Understanding class struggle tends to make excellent leaders and even liberals can see that if you take the opportunity to get results. At that point the goal is to educate your peers and build the org, eventually developing a relationship with our even cooler comrades over at PSL (or some such).

Remember these people aren’t liberal establishment adherents or else they’d be Democrats. They’re probably undereducated potential DemSocs (assuming they’re privileged nerds who want to do non-duopoly electoral politics). If that’s your style, go for it. If you’re a direct action person or more outright revolutionary, obviously not the best fit.

If this group ever were to gain traction in CA I certainly HOPE to see a couple of Hexbearians in leadership.

Depends on a lot of things, obviously this person is revealing their ignorance to you in an obvious way. You know more than them.

As far as how to respond and communicate any further, many questions come to mind:

• Is this a person you are obligated to have a continued relationship with?
• is this a person who you want to have a continued relationship with?
• Is there a power dynamic on your relationship with this person?
• Do you think they would be hostile if any particular topics were to come up?
• Does this person have a any position of implicit or explicit social or political power/influence?

These answers would all influence my response, but I don’t particularly enjoy engaging with people who’s understanding of the world is so misaligned from mine that I usually just move on as quickly as possible.

I don’t wish to leave my comrades in red states exposed directly to the fascist US, but at the same time id like to be able to build a safe, equitable, and affordable place for them to move to.

If Hexbear has a culture problem it’s poor communication and a seeping anticipation that the person you argue with is a latent fash.

“Latent fash” give me a break.

Their position is being called “ULTRALEFT”. Agree or disagree, nobody has ever implied that ultra-leftism is fascist adjacent. I would NEVER imply that about a member of our community and I’m offended at the implication that I would ever do so.

OP is not suggesting that the protests are effective at anything, but that it is an opportunity for those of us who want to make some people effective. I fully agree with u/jack that there are tons of queer people who are stoked to get educated, and they know for a fact that these protests don’t achieve anything and they love to be given an answer.

This is like 10% of the people there, ran into a ton of empty liberalism, but 10% of 40k is far more people than my group of 5 could possibly talk to anyway. If we can get just 5% of our contacts converted into canvassers for the next event, that will more than double the size of the group (of protest canvassers, not the org as a whole). Exponential growth!

If we dig in and make personal phone calls and contacts with the couple hundred sign ups we got, the retention will be much higher than 5%! These people are now part of an org where they can develop their knowledge and skills, and have the opportunity to become true comrades who are ready to hop into PSL or something like that.

Yes that’s the same position that OP bumped into in a previous thread as well. That is what’s being addressed in this post. It sucks to put in some work and come back to our community and be presented with that feedback from those we look to as comrades. As you can see from the thread, we aren’t the only two who are frustrated by this, and we have an opportunity to address it now.

As hardcore Marxist communists socialists, sometimes it is the materially correct move to win credibility by developing a social democratic party and government. I think our history has led to a lot of “Bernie-burnout” now that it’s been 5 years, but it’s time to reject that nihilism and throw support behind Zohran and build on that, instead of being “too cool for school”.

It’s basically the same as the smug Liberal leadership who want your vote, but if you approach them for a deeper discussion, or to get more involved, you get an empty smile and nod cause they “know more about how things actually work than this ‘socialist’”.

The "ultra left " position on here is basically the same. You DO know more than the liberals and socdems, but how tf does it look when you stand off and watch, and then be like “yeah you liberals don’t know what you’re doing, try harder next time”. Dive tf in and take charge, YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM. You won’t co-opt your local 50501 or whatever, but pulling a significant portion of them into a socialist faction and developing that into an independent group (or shove them into DSA, or into PSL, or ???) is a reasonable goal.

The way it reads sometimes is that people want to be a disciplined member of “the Bolshevik Party” or something, but the Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Party!! (I don’t think our comrades literally think this or don’t know the history, just a vibe I pick up on). If we want to emulate and adapt material conditions of successful revolutions, a proven move is to have a strong social-democratic movement. Then you continue your work from there (often internal to the party).

If you went to the protest, did some canvassing/organizing work, and posted about it here later in the day, you’d know exactly where OP is coming from. I know because I did the same thing, but didn’t have enough fury to bang out 7 paragraphs about it.

It’s important to call out this ultraleft position in our community to invite our comrades to reflect and develop a different perspective.