The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position towards NATO.
Stuff like this might actually be what unravels the Trump administration. The military industrial complex is far more powerful than any of the people Orange Julius has surrounded himself with, and they will not like taking losses to appease his ego.
It might unravel America, which would have much longer lasting consequences.
Donald Trump is not suicidal!
Have to be honest I’m not keen on the UK buying any more either I’d rather see Rafales on the new carriers or a tweaked eurofighter.
Euro fighter with vectoring engines, and better stealth would be doooope
Don’t think that will happen with the Tempest program being the main focus for the raf but if they could make a carrier capable tranche version it could be a good stopgap.
Bravo to Portugal!!! Setting a solid example of what the rest of 1st Class Europe should do with US weapon contracts. The current US political situation is playing a dangerous game with the US MIC.
Asking stupid question… Isn’t this kinda shit that got Kennedy killed? Fucking w the military industrial complex? Have those barons diversified enough to not care about this line of business or something? I thought this was kind of a backbone of our economy. So many jobs too.
Killing Donny wouldn’t change much, tho.
America has shown it wants Donald or a Donald substitute.Project 2025 is now Americas playbook.
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
The risk that has surfaced of “America has an off switch” - even just the potential risk of rumors of an off switch - means all those military assets are useless when America elects unhinged leaders that are willing to subvert democratic process in order to run their playbook.
And America has shown it is willing to do that. Even prefers to do thatEven if they don’t have an “off switch” they can just not update the software. Those jets require constant updates and without it the radars don’t work right and the stealth degrades.
State level actors are capable of providing those updates themselves… That update is the mythical off switch they talked about and it’s absolutely sensational bunk.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “upgrade it myself.” They need data to know how to upgrade it. That takes massive Sigint capabilities, etc. Other countries don’t have the capability.
Of course, with our intelligence allies withholding intelligence today and cooperating with each other, the playing field is much more level, so maybe.
The Intel here is primarily the specs and settings of enemy EW, radar, and weapons. The second they turn any of that on within detection range you have the intelligence on it. That’s why Turkey got dropped from the F-35 deal way back. They had Russian air defense systems and D.C. didn’t want them combining the two to give Russia a profile of the F-35 from their own systems.
America has shown it wants Donald or a Donald substitute.
well they also voted for kennedy, and they still killed him, assuming that’s how that works.
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
the service life of the f16 has been like forever, i think it’s been close to like 70 years now? Hell of a modernization in between then and now, similar story with the f22, although it’s quite a bit newer. Military equipment doesn’t really have a service life, it’s more so an effectiveness constant.
That’s all true, but Vance is a coward who will care more about his life than about what America wants.
The Donald has Hitler levels of luck in that regard.
Most dictators do, unfortunately. It takes several attempts and many courageous people willing to sacrifice to get there and sometimes that doesn’t even stop the dictatorship, as the dictator has a successor lined up.
plus donald has Musk as a lightning rod and a human shield.
When Finland chose their new 64 F-35s. I supported it. Not anymore. We should have chosen our west neighbour’s Saabs.
well you’ve got like, two options.
One of them is the swedes, and uh, it’s not bad, the other is uh checks notes hm, well you’ve got the swedes at least.
Edit: not the swiss, i confuse the two, they’re both european, don’t @ me.
hey guys, I think that trump guy might just be really awful for America.
Yeah. We know. Others are going ro find out.
Noggles
Why is that a bad thing ?
I’m assuming because American arms dealers like Lockheed Martin are losing a ton of business and America is rapidly losing the soft power and influence its build over the past 80 years
Why is that a bad thing ?
because that’s the entire crux of NATO, the post war world, and most of the military stability that currently exists throughout the western world, and beyond.
Who knows what happens after this point.
WWIII ofc, it’s inevitable if NATO falls. Who knows how it will play out, but it will play out if that comes to pass.
it’s an interesting time to be alive in, that’s for sure.
Now I understand why the phrase may you live in interesting times isn’t exactly a kind remark.
You mean how NATO destroyed Asia, Africa and the Middle East and is making masses of refugee streams emigrate? Very stable indeed.
NATO is the worlds largest terror organisation by a long shot. You deny their crimes committed in broad daylight because you have not been a victim of them.
What is next, The Empire did nothing wrong?
NATO destroyed asia? Aside from vietnam, which im not sure is in asia off the top of my head, which was also a war the US was personally involved in, im not sure what influence NATO has had outside of NATO member states. You know, the ones that actually matter.
Love to see it
If we assume that Portugal would have ordered the same number as Czechia (a fellow European country with a pretty close GDP, population, and military budget that already bought F-35s) and take the flyaway cost on wikipedia of $82.500,000 as the price Portugal would have paid per plane, that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
And that’s just the beginning.
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
Honestly, I feel it’s more likely to display how much the defense industry is just another ordinary industry. They’ll whinge and wring their hands, maybe openly support the limpdick opposition if they’re feeling particularly pressured, but all that experience in making killing machines is just engineering and marketing. They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
The defense industry is more like the oil industry than a cyberpunk future. Influential, not independent.
They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
now if they have influence over the military… That’s what starts coups.
The funniest possible outcome of this would be Lockheed Martin starting up a Tesla competitor
Edit: on the upside, it’ll probably come with a zero/zero ejection seat as a standard feature, so that’s neat.
What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
Doesn’t Boeing do mostly civilian aircraft?
They do something for military, so it’s not a docile, purely civilian company
Fucking with a defense contractor’s
Good point. Hadn’t really thought of it that way. What an enormous mess…
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The enemy of my enemy
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#ElbowsUp eh
Portugal would probably have bought more, since we have a large area of the Atlantic Ocean that needs to be patrolled not only by sea, but also by air.
You also gotta make sure nobody tries to steal the Azores for their beautiful nature.
Do they get more planes for their buck now?
Disclaimer in that I am not in any way an expert on military procurement: it depends on what they buy.
There are three European planes that can do similar roles: the Typhoon (Anglo-German-Italian), the Rafale (French), and the Gripen (Swedish). According to this RUSI article, it looks like the Typhoon is probably actually more expensive per plane. The Typhoon was also, unlike the other two and the F-35, designed to be a pure air superiority fighter, so it’s more of an F-22 competitor than an F-35 one. Probably not what Portugal is looking for. That RUSI article has the Rafale as being a bit more expensive than the F-35 and the Gripen being a bit cheaper than it. However, the source for the F-35’s number is the flyaway cost for the Americans, who did ordered it in huge numbers and also did most (not all, but most) of the development and I would assume get a better deal than others. Further, it’s in an article headlined “F-35’s price might rise, Lockheed warns”. So I’m just going to hedge my bets and say:
- If they buy the Typhoon, definitely no, but the Typhoon probably isn’t the right fit anyway
- If they buy the Rafale, somewhere around the same, and it’ll still be extremely capable
- If they buy the Gripen, yes, and it’ll still be very good but not quite individually capable as the other options
Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for.
A last point to consider is that the rafale is cheaper to operate than the F-35
That’s all well and good, but you’re also missing a critical point.
The European Union is very likely to introduce a bill that will massively subsidize purchases of local (EU) military equipment. This will make all EU alternatives much, much more attractive than F-35s.
This is a great move by the EU - it drives a lot of military spending away from the US and into the local economies, while shoring up its own security as well as preventing being at the hands of a fickle fascist for maintenance and upgrades.
Which in turn will probably also help with economies of scale, making the ex-subsidy cost of that equipment go down.
For once, our (Croatian) government lucked into making a good choice when they went with Rafales instead of F-16Vs.
What’s your opinion on Tejas (Yes, I know it’s not European)
Uhh, don’t expect any special insights here
It looks to me like it’s pretty impressive considering that it’s the second combat plane ever built in the country, and the experience gained from that is a valuable thing.
I have to assume that it’s less capable and less expensive than the four that I mentioned, based on how it has fared as an export. It seems to have struggled against the European, American, and Chinese offerings, or in many cases have been considered as a trainer by countries that are already flying one of those previously-mentioned ones. Obviously there’s a lot of politics involved in these purchases, but if Australia has already bought F-35s and wants Tejases as trainers then it suggests that Australia has a good reason to think that Tejas is a lot less expensive and also less effective at actually fighting a war
It seems like it suits its role well, though - a cost-effective solution for India’s needs, and a way to develop domestic expertise
It’s migration season, and this is only the first bird - I predict there’s more of them.
I think we have an interesting conflict of interest on the US side of the ocean: “the US military industrial complex” vs. “Trump, driving away their customers”.
US MIC: “I wish the Feds would buy more guns and less butter.”
*monkey paw curls*
For them it is easier, because as I understand they didn’t sign any contract yet, just were planning to.
They went to the fighter store and all the F-35s were turned upside down.
Why would anybody feel they can rely on American hardware anymore? Any country with any sense won’t be beholden to them as an ally now thanks to that idiotic mango.
Portugal was lucky to get quite late aboard the F35 ship, as they decided about it as late as April 2024. Finland, where I’m from, was one of the earliest ones, deciding about the procurement in late 2022. Some other ones, as told by Wikipedia:
Canada: Jan 2023 Czechia: Jan 2024 Germany: 2023 Greece: Delivery 2027, so ordered probably in late 2023 or so? Poland: 2020, apparently some already delivered? Romania: November 2024 Singapore: Early 2024 Switzerland: delivery from 2027, so probably ordered in late 2023?
The further the procurement process, the more money might get wasted if the order has to be cancelled. Would still make sense to cancel, though, because a weapon you are free to use as long as there is no war is just a heap of scrap metal. It does not matter how much money we’ve already spent on the scrap metal, we should not put a cent more.
Yeah I got a sneaking suspicion that LMC’s gonna see a ton of options getting dropped and orders cancelled. Our government is not to be trusted. We’ll use that shit as leverage at some point.
Let’s do this too! 🇨🇦
There has been talk. Apparently will cost about 500 million to cancel the contract.
Money well spent. But, frankly, who is that 500 million to? What happens if… They just don’t pay? I mean, Trump is very familiar with just not paying bills owed, maybe Canada should just… Return in kind?
Even business-wise and strictily obbeying the contract conditions, paying 500 million for nothing still makes more business sense that paying billions for what will become inactive-plane-shaped pieces of metal if Canada ever needs to defend itself against the only country that geographically is in a position of actually invading it.
Or, just ignore it, pay 0, and see if the US has the stones to try and do anything about it.
Spoiler, we dont.
