No one is claiming that they are upset because he isnāt perfect. Writing a blank check for Israel to kill tens of thousands of civilians is an act that most Democrats arenāt happy about.
He is acting in ways that his constituents dislike, the way they show their contempt is by criticizing his actions. What about that is propaganda?
It doesnāt take a purist to understand that enabling a right winged government to partake in an ethnic cleansing isnāt exactly progressive policy.
Writing a blank check for Israel to kill tens of thousands of civilians is an act that most Democrats arenāt happy about.
Okay, but it literally is. Most Democrats remain in favor of either the current course taken by Biden, or increasing support to Israel.
For the record, while Iām happy support of Israel has decreased, itās not the simple electoral calculus many leftists on Lemmy seem to think it is. I would love it if the US electorate, or even just the Dem base, was strongly against the genocide. But by and large, we on here, who actually follow foreign affairs, are in the minority.
Thatās arguing in semantics. If we have polls saying that the majority of people are paying attention, and stating they donāt approve of Israelās military action. Then a poll with conflicting information with 40% of responses saying idk, means it was a shitty questionnaire. Or thatās not the right questionnaire to correctly determine if Democrats approve of how bidens handling the conflict.
Approval of Israeli military action is not the same as approval of US aid to Israel.
Also, if we are being pedanticā¦asking if Biden is āstriking the right balanceā is not the same as approval of US aid. If we want to be even more pedantic,ā¦ US aid is not even appropriate as most people think of āaidā as humanitarian in nature. Israel doesnāt need food or medicine, they need weapons.
Iād like to see a poll that ask if the US should be supplying weapons to a military that primarily have used them to kill women and children.
If there are studies that suggest a majority of people
Iād like to see a poll that ask if the US should be supplying weapons to a military that primarily have used them to kill women and children.
If there are studies that suggest a majority of people
I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter seriously. I despise the position weāre in, and support the removal of all military and financial aid from Israel. Let me finish cooking and Iāll see if I can find a poll worded specifically enough to suit your criteria.
EDIT: Itās actually in the Pew Poll, I just missed it, it would seem. On the issue of military aid specifically, and not just whether Biden is currently taking the ārightā path or a ānot Israeli favorable enoughā pathā¦
I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter seriously. I despise the position weāre in, and support the removal of all military and financial aid from Israel. Let me finish cooking and Iāll see if I can find a poll worded specifically enough to suit your criteria.
Okay, but is that enough to convince you that the majority of Democrats are not fans of how the Biden administration is handling the situation?
And surely if the majority of constituents disagree with this policy, it makes sense to protest against it?
I understand that a lot more than Palestine is riding on the election. What I donāt understand is why people are upset at his constituents laying out perfectly valid criticism. What I donāt get is people on Lemmy conflating criticisms with propaganda, and attempting to silence those criticisms.
Maybe a better person to be upset at is the elected official, who just so happens to be ignoring the majority of his party to support an ultra conservative government?
Maybe if all the people who ādespise the position weāre inā voiced that criticism instead of silencing others, the administration would have to change their stanceā¦
Maybe thatās the whole point of protesting in a democracyā¦
Edit: on a side note, I would still like to see what happens if you asked those same people who approved of military aid, if they still approved aid knowing that it was going to be used to mostly kill innocent women and children.
Labeling it Israel vs Hamas is not accurate, as 70% of the casualties have been women and children.
Okay, but is that enough to convince you that the majority of Democrats are not fans of how the Biden administration is handling the situation?
We already went over āhow the Biden administration is handling the situationā, in which the numbers are even.
This point was specifically brought up, separately, as approval military aid, which yields a different answer.
You can say thatās dumb, and it is, but thatās democracy. People donāt always have consistent opinions.
In any case, while I still have doubts as to whether it would be an electoral advantage for Biden to change positions, Iām more hopeful about it. And, as Iāve mentioned elsewhere, Iām in support of him changing positions anyway, under the justification that if itās āDamned if you do, damned if you donāt, might as well at least be damned with the moral choice and not the immoral oneā
My position was (and to a lesser degree, still is) just that there is not a CLEAR electoral advantage to it - itās not as simple as āBiden does this ONE THING and he WINSā, especially since Gaza in particular and foreign affairs in general rate low on voterās concerns this electoral cycle.
And surely if the majority of constituents disagree with this policy, it makes sense to protest against it?
It would make sense to protest against it even if a plurality didnāt disagree. Itās a citizenās duty to protest, even if theyāre the only one who disagrees.
I understand that a lot more than Palestine is riding on the election. What I donāt understand is why people are upset at his constituents laying out perfectly valid criticism. What I donāt get is people on Lemmy conflating criticisms with propaganda, and attempting to silence those criticisms.
Because a lot of people on here are continuously repeating āBiden badā on every issue, or redirecting every issue to Gaza, and then pushing āVOTE THIRD PARTYā or āDONāT VOTEā or āDEMS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THE SAMEā, and those of us who are in line for the camps under a Trump presidency find this, at best incredibly privileged, and at worst, actively destructive, viewpoint as just a mite concerning.
Before it was Gaza, it was unions on here - by the rhetoric of many of the same players who are beating the Gaza drum on Lemmy now, youādāve thought Biden was the worst union-buster in US history, instead of a moderately-pro-Union president whoās been better for labor than any other administration in probably a good half-century. And if the Gaza genocide ceases to call peopleās attention before the election, theyāll move onto something else.
I would argue that not only is cynicism towards certain common arguments justified in that situation, but actively beneficial towards filtering the noise.
Maybe if all the people who ādespise the position weāre inā voiced that criticism instead of silencing others, the administration would have to change their stanceā¦
Maybe thatās the whole point of protesting in a democracyā¦
Man, Iām not against the protests. Iām fully in support of them.
already went over āhow the Biden administration is handling the situationā, in which the numbers are even.
I think I disputed your interpretation of that data.
This point was specifically brought up, separately, as approval military aid, which yields a different answer
No I was utilizing that information to prove that your argument was semantic in nature.
You can say thatās dumb, and it is, but thatās democracy. People donāt always have consistent opinions.
Lol, yes democracy is all about silencing your constituentsā¦ This whole argument started over the validity of criticizing the president. You have done nothing but try to refute that in the most āenlightened centeristā way possible.
In any case, while I still have doubts as to whether it would be an electoral advantage for Biden to change positions, Iām more hopeful about it.
Ahh yes, electoral advantage is surely the only reasoning we should utilize when deciding if genocide is an appropriate foreign policyā¦
Iām in support of him changing positions anyway, under the justification that if itās āDamned if you do, damned if you donāt, might as well at least be damned with the moral choice and not the immoral oneā
And yet, you still aid people spreading propaganda that implores people to science criticism. Sure.
itās not as simple as āBiden does this ONE THING and he WINSā, especially since Gaza in particular and foreign affairs in general rate low on voterās concerns this electoral cycle.
I never made any claim close to that? You can fight your own straw man all by yourself.
It would make sense to protest against it even if a plurality didnāt disagree. Itās a citizenās duty to protest, even if theyāre the only one who disagrees.
Okay, then what is the point of your pedantic rebuttal?
Because a lot of people on here are continuously repeating āBiden badā on every issue, or redirecting every issue to Gaza, and then pushing āVOTE THIRD PARTYā or āDONāT VOTEā or āDEMS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THE SAMEā, and those of us who are in line for the camps under a Trump presidency find this, at best incredibly privileged, and at worst, actively destructive, viewpoint as just a mite concerning
And did I make any of those claims? Or are you just conflating all criticism as such?
Before it was Gaza, it was unions on here - by the rhetoric of many of the same players who are beating the Gaza drum on Lemmy now, youādāve thought Biden was the worst union-buster in US history, instead of a moderately-pro-Union president whoās been better for labor than any other administration in probably a good half-century.
Again, I didnāt make any of those claims. Maybe people are driven to this level of criticism because they feel centerist are trying to mute all criticism from within the constituency?
And if the Gaza genocide ceases to call peopleās attention before the election, theyāll move onto something else.
Lol, you talk about a genocide as if itās a frivolous complaint and you call other people privileged?
Man, Iām not against the protests. Iām fully in support of them.
So youāre for the protest, but against people voicing their opinions on Lemmy? You have just spent several paragraphs equating the criticism against genocide as just a distraction for the election cycleā¦but you support it?
Congrats on being the most āenlightened centeristā Iāve come across on Lemmy.
I only hope that one day you muster up enough empathy to lose sleep over stating " if the Gaza genocide ceases to call peopleās attention before the election, theyāll move onto something else. "
No one is claiming that they are upset because he isnāt perfect. Writing a blank check for Israel to kill tens of thousands of civilians is an act that most Democrats arenāt happy about.
He is acting in ways that his constituents dislike, the way they show their contempt is by criticizing his actions. What about that is propaganda?
It doesnāt take a purist to understand that enabling a right winged government to partake in an ethnic cleansing isnāt exactly progressive policy.
Okay, but it literally is. Most Democrats remain in favor of either the current course taken by Biden, or increasing support to Israel.
For the record, while Iām happy support of Israel has decreased, itās not the simple electoral calculus many leftists on Lemmy seem to think it is. I would love it if the US electorate, or even just the Dem base, was strongly against the genocide. But by and large, we on here, who actually follow foreign affairs, are in the minority.
Wrong on every pointā¦
How many times have I fucking said this? Approval of Israeli military action is not the same as approval of US aid to Israel.
Although I apparently did misremember - the numbers are about even rather than a majority in favor.
Thatās arguing in semantics. If we have polls saying that the majority of people are paying attention, and stating they donāt approve of Israelās military action. Then a poll with conflicting information with 40% of responses saying idk, means it was a shitty questionnaire. Or thatās not the right questionnaire to correctly determine if Democrats approve of how bidens handling the conflict.
Also, if we are being pedanticā¦asking if Biden is āstriking the right balanceā is not the same as approval of US aid. If we want to be even more pedantic,ā¦ US aid is not even appropriate as most people think of āaidā as humanitarian in nature. Israel doesnāt need food or medicine, they need weapons.
Iād like to see a poll that ask if the US should be supplying weapons to a military that primarily have used them to kill women and children.
If there are studies that suggest a majority of people
I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter seriously. I despise the position weāre in, and support the removal of all military and financial aid from Israel. Let me finish cooking and Iāll see if I can find a poll worded specifically enough to suit your criteria.
EDIT: Itās actually in the Pew Poll, I just missed it, it would seem. On the issue of military aid specifically, and not just whether Biden is currently taking the ārightā path or a ānot Israeli favorable enoughā pathā¦
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/03/PRC_2024.3.21_Israel-Hamas_2-04.png
36% in favor to 35% opposed in the general population
25% in favor of military aid to 44% opposed in the Democratic party
Okay, but is that enough to convince you that the majority of Democrats are not fans of how the Biden administration is handling the situation?
And surely if the majority of constituents disagree with this policy, it makes sense to protest against it?
I understand that a lot more than Palestine is riding on the election. What I donāt understand is why people are upset at his constituents laying out perfectly valid criticism. What I donāt get is people on Lemmy conflating criticisms with propaganda, and attempting to silence those criticisms.
Maybe a better person to be upset at is the elected official, who just so happens to be ignoring the majority of his party to support an ultra conservative government?
Maybe if all the people who ādespise the position weāre inā voiced that criticism instead of silencing others, the administration would have to change their stanceā¦
Maybe thatās the whole point of protesting in a democracyā¦
Edit: on a side note, I would still like to see what happens if you asked those same people who approved of military aid, if they still approved aid knowing that it was going to be used to mostly kill innocent women and children.
Labeling it Israel vs Hamas is not accurate, as 70% of the casualties have been women and children.
We already went over āhow the Biden administration is handling the situationā, in which the numbers are even.
This point was specifically brought up, separately, as approval military aid, which yields a different answer.
You can say thatās dumb, and it is, but thatās democracy. People donāt always have consistent opinions.
In any case, while I still have doubts as to whether it would be an electoral advantage for Biden to change positions, Iām more hopeful about it. And, as Iāve mentioned elsewhere, Iām in support of him changing positions anyway, under the justification that if itās āDamned if you do, damned if you donāt, might as well at least be damned with the moral choice and not the immoral oneā
My position was (and to a lesser degree, still is) just that there is not a CLEAR electoral advantage to it - itās not as simple as āBiden does this ONE THING and he WINSā, especially since Gaza in particular and foreign affairs in general rate low on voterās concerns this electoral cycle.
It would make sense to protest against it even if a plurality didnāt disagree. Itās a citizenās duty to protest, even if theyāre the only one who disagrees.
Because a lot of people on here are continuously repeating āBiden badā on every issue, or redirecting every issue to Gaza, and then pushing āVOTE THIRD PARTYā or āDONāT VOTEā or āDEMS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THE SAMEā, and those of us who are in line for the camps under a Trump presidency find this, at best incredibly privileged, and at worst, actively destructive, viewpoint as just a mite concerning.
Before it was Gaza, it was unions on here - by the rhetoric of many of the same players who are beating the Gaza drum on Lemmy now, youādāve thought Biden was the worst union-buster in US history, instead of a moderately-pro-Union president whoās been better for labor than any other administration in probably a good half-century. And if the Gaza genocide ceases to call peopleās attention before the election, theyāll move onto something else.
I would argue that not only is cynicism towards certain common arguments justified in that situation, but actively beneficial towards filtering the noise.
Man, Iām not against the protests. Iām fully in support of them.
I think I disputed your interpretation of that data.
No I was utilizing that information to prove that your argument was semantic in nature.
Lol, yes democracy is all about silencing your constituentsā¦ This whole argument started over the validity of criticizing the president. You have done nothing but try to refute that in the most āenlightened centeristā way possible.
Ahh yes, electoral advantage is surely the only reasoning we should utilize when deciding if genocide is an appropriate foreign policyā¦
And yet, you still aid people spreading propaganda that implores people to science criticism. Sure.
I never made any claim close to that? You can fight your own straw man all by yourself.
Okay, then what is the point of your pedantic rebuttal?
And did I make any of those claims? Or are you just conflating all criticism as such?
Again, I didnāt make any of those claims. Maybe people are driven to this level of criticism because they feel centerist are trying to mute all criticism from within the constituency?
Lol, you talk about a genocide as if itās a frivolous complaint and you call other people privileged?
So youāre for the protest, but against people voicing their opinions on Lemmy? You have just spent several paragraphs equating the criticism against genocide as just a distraction for the election cycleā¦but you support it?
Congrats on being the most āenlightened centeristā Iāve come across on Lemmy.
I only hope that one day you muster up enough empathy to lose sleep over stating " if the Gaza genocide ceases to call peopleās attention before the election, theyāll move onto something else. "
Go kick rocks