- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
âAs soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; theyâre shuffling in their seats.â Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, âI can see them look at me, like, âI used to like you.ââ
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
âA lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,â he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a âdominance-based modelâ of masculinity. âThese old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers â your grifters, like Andrew Tate.â
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If you donât want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.
âA lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,â
The same could be said about âcommunismâ and âsocialismâ. The words have been turned dirty, such that people shy away from what is objectively a good thing when done honestly and to the letter of the principle.
Kind of like Critical Race Theory. If properly understood and applied, people would benefit from the knowledge and empathy.
Pretty much exactly the same, except CRT got knocked down before it even had established itself as a positive thing.
It was already established. Itâs just a theoretical framework in various social studies. It was deliberately bastardized by the right as they were seeking something to hate. It wasnât even in the public consciousness, just something academics used and that get taught in some higher ed classes. Itâs a very useful framework but itâs not something that youâd actually teach a kid.
To be fair, the term âfeministâ was highjacked by the radical feminist movement. They very much do not believe in equality, their motto is âkill all menâ
I think itâs easy to see why that would turn people away. Hence why I describe myself as an equalizer, not a feminist.
Edit: my statement was very reasonable and Iâm willing to engage in discussion about what I have witnessed. If you think Iâm pushing an agenda or trying to convince others of anything, feel free to check my post history. However, if you accuse me of pushing an agenda or lying or anything else, you are engaging in false faith and will be blocked. I have a long history of supporting womenâs rights, as evidenced by several posts I have made. But I will not stand for being accused of being a right winger.
I think again that was one that was actually hijacked by the right wing. There is far more fearmongering about hardcore feminists than there are hardcore feminists.
People hyperfocus on the 1% of crazy feminists instead of the other 99% who are actually normal and reasonable. Sadly that 1% are doing more harm to the public image of feminism than good.
We live in an age of twitter screenshot outrage and that pathetically emboldens some peoples beliefs so the root cause really is social media. Nothing more nothing less.
I really dislike the way youâre portraying feminism as a brand and trying to assign responsibility onto individuals for the public perception of that brand. Itâs not the responsibility of any woman to convince men that they deserve rights, that they deserve fair political power and representation. If someone is dissuaded from supporting womenâs rights because someone said something they didnât like or agree with, that person is a misogynist and unlikely to have ever actually supported womenâs rights in any meaningful capacity.
The caricature of the âcrazy feministâ is also in and of itself misogynistic, and is used to silence feminist activism all the time. Not that there arenât legitimate extremist parts to the movement, particularly in the 60s 70s and 80s when feminism had yet to make many major strides towards female liberation. Just that the label is often used to dismiss things like the pink tax, the wage gap, and discussions of rape culture and intersectionality.
Feminist and women are not synonyms. Feminism is a political movement. Every political movement needs to advocate for itself. That is the way politics works.
Feminism is a political movement in the same way the civil rights movement was/is a political movement or that the gay rights movement is a political movement. Itâs a rights movement. Itâs a resistance movement, resisting patriarchy and misogyny.
It is self evidently true that women deserve rights. It is not the job of women to convince you they deserve rights. Feminism organizes women against the systems that oppress them. It does not appeal to the humanity of misogynists.
I really dislike the way youâre portraying feminism as a brand and trying to assign responsibility onto individuals for the public perception of that brand
Feminism is a brand in the same way civil rights are. Thereâs a reason why MLK succeeded where Malcolm X failed, Gandhi successfully took back India, Obama won the 2008 election, etc. This all has to do with how theyâre perceived to people not part of their movement. Without a good brand none of these movements would have ever succeeded. And yes it is up to the leaders and each individual member of these movements to uphold a generally good perception. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. You have to win over the population, always.
Itâs not the responsibility of any woman to convince men that they deserve rights, that they deserve fair political power and representation. If someone is dissuaded from supporting womenâs rights because someone said something they didnât like or agree with, that person is a misogynist and unlikely to have ever actually supported womenâs rights in any meaningful capacity.
In an ideal world no, but we are not in an ideal world. If someone is a mysgonist what is so wrong with sitting down with them and discussing topics like normal human beings and showing them why thatâs wrong? Just completely shutting them out like how youâre describing is exactly how you embolden an opposition group. Imagine someone on twitter was actually just simple minded and based their opinions on one tweet and didnât actually hear the other side properly? A lot of people like that exist. And if your attitude is âoh theyâre misogynistic and never cared so I shouldnât even botherâ then youâre just digging your own hole.
The caricature of the âcrazy feministâ is also in and of itself misogynistic, and is used to silence feminist activism all the time. Not that there arenât legitimate extremist parts to the movement, particularly in the 60s 70s and 80s when feminism had yet to make many major strides towards female liberation. Just that the label is often used to dismiss things like the pink tax, the wage gap, and discussions of rape culture and intersectionality.
See what I, and Iâm sure many others dislike is the way you derive misogyny from a simple example. A lot of people simply donât see anything wrong with calling out the âcraziesâ of a group. Am I islamaphobic for calling out terrorists? No. Am I anti-christian for calling out the Westboro Baptist church? No. Am I misogynistic for making fun of clearly unhinged people on twitter? No. Extreme examples of course, but you get the picture. The instant jump to misogyny when genuinely crazy, unhinged, insane feminists get made fun of is ridiculous. Like I said, >99% of feminists are completely normal and sane. There is nothing wrong or hateful for calling out the crazy people in any group.
Studies have shown for 50 years now that trying to convince a bigot to stop being a bigot is literally not possible. You cannot force someone to stop being bigoted. You canât convince them women should be able to divorce their husbands if they already believe that women shouldnât be able to.
We gain nothing by even speaking with them, literally nothing. MLK didnât just by himself win the civil rights movement, first of all. Nor did he come after Malcolm X or something. They were both a part of the same movement at the same time. The most effective tactics he employed had nothing to do with appealing to the humanity of white supremacist segregationists. The most effective tactics employed were the ones that broadcast injustice to the entire black community, promoting solidarity and resulting in widespread demonstrations, protests, and both passive and active civil unrest. MLK did not call for white saviors to come save them. He fought actively against the system that upheld white supremacy. He appealed to those who already believed that black people should have rights by broadcasting injustice that was self-evidently wrong.
Gays didnât get rights by begging at the feet of homophobes. We got rights by throwing bricks at them. We got rights by rioting, causing unrest and disrupting the homophobic as much as possible. We wouldnât be here if black drag queens in the 60s hadnât punched back.
i think the notion of âconvincingâ is the issue. it really needs to be done by men, itâs not as though what women are saying is factually incorrect or the content is off, itâs often the opposite i find. when i say what women or feminists i respect say i always seem to get a better response than if a woman said it or the original author said it.
itâs such a shame, thereâs already a ton of work done by a sizeable proportion of the population and itâs ignored or misconstrued :/
⊠well, yeah⊠but symptoms can kill you, too.
While feminism is far from perfect, especially smaller circles that want to have unfair divorce rights for women or whatever, people like Andrew Tate are both the problem (as in, spreading the classic incel rhetoric) and the symptom (why young adults and teens follow people like him).
Though not only him, but also a lot of right-wing youtube channels are pushing false narratives in order to get outrage clicks and to radicalize people against things like feminism. You have youtube videos that say how âfeminism is trying to ruin menâ or âcrazy feminists want to remove sexy girls from video gamesâ or âfeminists donât care about menâ, and given the amount of right-wing youtube videos that get hundreds of thousands and not millions of views, a lot of people do believe it. In reality, however, men do have issues and feminists are acknowledging them and are trying to do something about it (for example, toxic masculinity being responsible for male loneliness for instance), but also things like patriarchy, discrimination and so on.
Hating feminism and/or women isnât going to solve male loneliness. Actual societal-level change, something that feminists are striving for, is the answer.
Is it really that hard not to be a fucking cunt?
I really think that tate is an imbecil, and his fanbase are just being manipulated.
It is sad to see that boys think that this idiot is someone who deserve attention.
I also blame CBC and other supposedly legit sources for giving this fuck air time and even asking him about the Israel/Palestine war as if his opinion matters.
Also so called journalists like this who remove all responsibility from Tate for being a rapist piece of shit
Men benefit significantly from feminism, through the breakdown of male stereotypes, and the expansion of how normative masculinity is defined. Not that benefiting cishet men is necessarily the most important thing in the world, but the idea that feminism puts men on the losing end of some zero sum game is simply wrong.
Honestly it could not be more clear in my own experience. There is a ton of diversity in the human experience, and the masculine experience is part of that. You deny your own freedom when you put yourself and others in a conformity pigeonhole. And you additionally deny yourself access to this diversity of experience when you do it to others. But I also kind of understand why this nuance is initially lost on children, and suspect that experience plus education will help immensely.
I see this on my school campus quite a lot. When the male teachers direct students from using an exterior door, they usually just say ok and then around. When the female teachers are on duty and day the same things, they get verbally abused. If Iâm out there with the female teachers, there arenât any issues.
Sadly, this is even an issue at university. As a lecture assistant I will just get ignored or not taken seriously by some groups of young male students. They will talk loudly, ignore my request to not talk during lecture or exercise. My male colleagues donât have such issues and it angers me more each yearâŠ
This shit stain can be both.
Iâve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
When I went to high school in the early 2010s there was this huge movement of like⊠positivity and sunshine and wellness and feminism and good times for all. Bob Ross was on everyoneâs mind and Pharrellâs âHappyâ blasted on the stereo, people wore really bright and mismatched and often gaudy outfits.
This was seemingly âin responseâ to that mid 2000s emo/grunge/depressed aesthetic which was very dark and moody. And now, in response to that 2010s positivity we seem to get this really jaded, âactually, feminism sucks and becoming a âtrad catholicâ is chicâ movement.
Itâs annoying, and Iâm sure weâll see an opposite shift again in 5 years.
Iâve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
That implies that itâs somehow a natural cycle, but this is dangerous because it ignores and âLaissez-faireâ the fascist propaganda that is blasted deliberately into our global society. It started with fox news and talk radio where funding from fascists helped spread âmisinformationâ and now continues on social media, where the same funding takes place. The strategy behind this funding is that fascism works when socio-economic circumstances get worse and worse, and allow further exploitation.
Additionally, controversial viewpoints are rewarded by more engagement and clicks - and so become part of the strategy of AI algorithms.
You should absolutely not assume it gets better on itâs own, without enough people pushing back against it and without the rules of how the system is allowed to work being changed. Gen Z is just as susceptible to propaganda as Boomers.
Jeez, you must have gone to high school in a rich neighborhood
For most people 2009-2015 or so was an impoverished hellhole. Everyone was recovering from the great recession. Societal outlook was fucking BLEAK.
I did not. You can have poor economic conditions but still a cultural zeitgeist focused more on positivity, inclusion, and âwellnessâ than usual
Not saying itâs impossible, but Iâve never seen it
How many schools did you sample to come to this conclusion?
weird cause I got really depressed around that time because I was an unemployable highschool dropout during a recession so I fucking hated that happy song.
I actually agree⊠We simply ignore the needs of men who are suffering. When was the last time you read a story about a male domestic abuse victim who WASNâT laughed at.
Toxic masculinity is the reason for that as well. Being the victim is seen as being less masculine, which is seen as worthy of ridicule.
Toxic masculinity hurts everyone.
When men do bad things: âthis is toxic masculinityâ
When women do bad things: âthis is also toxic masculinityâ
When men donât get the support they need. Or are ridiculed for feeling emotions other than anger. And donât feel they can cry without being judged.
Women can absolutely be abusers. Thatâs called shitty people and has nothing to do with masculinity, toxic or otherwise.
Most men cry in front of a woman exactly once.
Thatâs not toxic masculinity. Itâs toxic femininity and NO ONE is addressing it in a systemic way.
In feminist theory âmasculinityâ and âfemininityâ donât mean âwhat men doâ and âwhat women doâ but value systems floating through society affecting people.
So in that sense yes woman can exhibit toxic masculinity, if they reinforce those shitty norms. Likewise men can exhibit toxic femininity⊠say, comparatively harmless example, by discouraging a tomboy from skating.
Itâs just one of those gazillions of instances where feminist terminology sucks absolutely donkeyballs because you need to read theory to understand it, which practically noone who calls themselves a feminist actually does, itâs all vibes and signals very little analysis they abuse those terms just like the rest of the population. The rest of the population at least has an excuse, theyâre using the dictionary definition.
In this particular instance, âtoxic (male) gender normâ would be much better.
Well, the male domestic abuse victim is probably laughed at, because he is the strong powerful man and should therefore not be able to get abused by the weak woman. The same for male rape victims: man like sex and always want sex and therefore they canât be raped, because they like it. These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them. It will take some time to redefine the societal picture of man and woman.
These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them.
Are they though? Iâve never seen any evidence of feminists reining in their fellow feminists
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/15/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety
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https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2552&context=clr;We
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https://www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/26/radical-feminism-has-a-humanity-problem/
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https://jacobin.com/2017/07/radical-feminism-second-wave-class
Iâm not saying this is representative, mind you, only that criticism of feminists by other feminists (notably for employing damaging stereotypes) is out there if you actually look for it.
Can you name the actual feminist(s) which youâre referring toâŠ? You wonât really see feminists doing feminist things if youâre not going out of your way to participate in the feminist movement. Iâm pretty sure most peopleâs entire idea of âfeminismâ is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming âkill all menâ or something.
Feminism isnât about âmen bad, women goodâ or âwomen need to be more privileged in societyâ, itâs about minimizing or erasing gender norms/stereotypes, even if those perceptions sometimes benefit women. Gender/sexual equality is the point of the movement, it recognizes that women are favoured by the judicial system when it comes to cases related to violence & domestic disputes, and that society thinks that men should be big and strong and scary and that society shuns men who face problems in life or are wronged as âweakâ, and that young people (especially men) are lonely, and that women are unlikely to receive as much benefit from the same labour (e.g., promotions/raises, perceived expertise) compared to men, etc. etc.
And the movement recognizes that those problems are often mostly or entirely caused by fucked up perceptions about gender that our society has built over an inconceivably large amount of time, and that we still apply to the modern day, that women are weak and beautiful and pure and dumb and dependent and subordinate to men and nurturing and need to be protected, and that men are strong and smart and do all the dirty work and independent and providing and commanding and need to protect women. That women and men are treated certain ways in some areas and get certain privileges over the other because of the way society views the concept of/separation between âmanâ and âwomanâ (and pushes against the view or âneither man or womanâ) in the first place.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about âwe need to make men 2nd-class citizensâ, rather than âthese artificially constructed and inaccurate ideas of differences between men and women are harmful to society and cause us to force certain perceptions on people, making us be biased against a certain gender in many areas or shun those of a certain gender who donât fit into certain stereotypesâ. Also some people donât really care either way and want to be mad, but that happens with everything.
Another thing that is always spammed every time anything related to womenâs struggles or just general womenâs rights (even if feminism isnât mentioned) is âbut what about men?â which is ignoring the entire point⊠weâre in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues, even gender issues, and not be out to try to 1-up each other every time one of the âotherâ groups have their issues talked about. And we can recognize that women often face issues men donât face as much, and men often face issues that women donât face as much, and we can recognize that often times the difference of magnitude of struggles based on gender is caused by the fact that society treats different genders so irrationally different in the first place.
Some want to throw away the concept of âfeminismâ/âgender & sexuality equalityâ and instead exclusively use âegalitarianismâ, but I think thatâs kind of just trying to detract from the issue and is as absurd as saying we shouldnât think about âracial equalityâ as its own concept either, and saying âwomen have all the rights men have, but theyâre just greedy and want moreâ is as dumb as saying âracial minorities have all the rights that white people have, but theyâre just greedy and want moreâ. Also because of this exact idea the term âegalitarianismâ is generally associated with libertarians which is just⊠eugh⊠no thanks.
BTW this is tangential to the topic, but when people say âtoxic masculinityâ or âpatriarchyâ the idea isnât that itâs mens fault and everything would be so much better if they just drop their toxicity and masculinity. Itâs more generally referring to how historically, in societies where men were at the âtopâ of the social hierarchy, created were the perceptions that men are supposed to be a certain way, and that women are supposed to be a certain other way, based entirely around the most idolized men of the times having certain characteristics/powers that dictated their place in society. These ideas still, for the most part, persist to the modern day in an altered & tamer form, and they still affect how all of us who are raised in these cultures perceive gender identity. Thatâs why itâs said men are victims of âpatriarchyâ or âtoxic masculinityâ too, because modern gender perceptions/issues are tightly tied to where they originated, and those societal/governmental structures are still âhereâ in a very warped but slightly recognizable form.
Iâm pretty sure most peopleâs entire idea of âfeminismâ is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming âkill all menâ or something.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about âwe need to make men 2nd-class citizensâ
I just want to quickly clarify thatâs not what I think. I donât think feminism as a whole is about putting men down, and thatâs a hilariously egocentric viewpoint to have anywayâŠyeah this whole giant movement that says itâs about women is actually about menâŠcome on bro get over yourself lol.
I think feminism is about raising women up. It just doesnât have any mechanism to (1) say âhey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!â (college admissions for example), (2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example), or (3) address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
weâre in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues,
This is the WHOLE POINT of âwhat about men?â Feminists do not care about male struggles. And Iâm not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I donât know what they think because it doesnât matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little. Weâre really fucking struggling and could use a hand here. Not asking for a lot, just a little acknowledgement and appreciation and maybe a policy initiative here and there.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
The entirety of the internet is putting people in check. You donât even have to go to specific feminists to see it, any times a misandrist freak-out goes viral thereâs immediately a visceral reaction to it by even the âwokeâ parts of the internet and a bunch of feminists being like âyea s/heâs not one of usâ. Anyone can call themselves anything, and every movement has radicals, but every feminist knows that those radicals are a joke and just easy bait for anti-feminist rhetoric.
yeah this whole giant movement that says itâs about women is actually about menâŠcome on bro get over yourself lol. I think feminism is about raising women up.
Jesus christ you really did filter out literally everything you just read didnât you⊠every time âfeminismâ comes up itâs literally feminists telling you âitâs not just about womenâ but people like you just completely ignore it. What entity exactly is âthis whole giant movementâ thatâs saying itâs about women? I explained where the gendered terms of the movement come from, the historical reasons why theyâre called that, so I would hope youâre not just taking the name at face value. There is literally not a singular feminist that says âyeah this movement isnât about men at all, we only care about womenâ. Many issues in this world primarily screw over women though, and those are often talked about, which I assume is where your confusion comes from.
It just doesnât have any mechanism to (1) say âhey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!â (college admissions for example)
What is this even supposed to mean? You think feminists arenât happy and donât take pride in when a goal like more equal treatment in something based on gender or sexual orientation is achieved? That literally proves that you donât actually pay attention to anything that has to do with the movement and youâre just making rage up lol.
(2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example)
Except they do. Literally one of the most important parts of the feminist movement is encouraging people to pursue career choices that societal perceptions discourage a specific gender from doing. Especially when it comes to dirty, dangerous, physical jobs. Do you know just how much women working trades/physical labour is talked about in various feminist groups? It is one of the primary workplace issues, generally women are completely bullied out of working such jobs and are seen as âincompetentâ when it comes to professions like welders, mechanics, electricians, or any other form of physically demanding jobs. I have witnessed this firsthand, as well as my former best friend literally being a welder and constantly describing how awful women are treated by the people working these jobs, how theyâre constantly sexualized/objectified and harassed, how they have to always be afraid in their own workplace because of this. This is one of the most important things feminists are actively working on, equalizing trades and making it so both men and women are treated fairly and well. Feminism is also often intertwined with workerâs rights, guarantees to employees, safety in the workplace, etc. which fits into this excelently.
address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
What? Iâm mentally facepalming right now⊠feminists are constantly encouraging positive role models, educators, leaders, etc. for everyone (including men), what are you on about? Additionally one of feministsâ primary concerns is access to healthcare, and especially relating to feministsâ concerns is mental healthcare, something that affects men a lot. They recognize what causes many of these problems, and they work to fix them. Feminists fight against negative influences like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.
Many role models for men were/are feminists, and feminists actively are engaged in propping boys up and encouraging positive traits in them (as well as girls). I think one everyone can relate to hearing is Mr. Rogers.
This is the WHOLE POINT of âwhat about men?â
It really is not. The point is to say âwomenâs issues donât matter because men also have other issuesâ. It is a way to detract from any discussion about womenâs rights, to try to take over the conversation to say âwe have it worse in some different wayâ, to try to emphasize the idea they have that women are privileged and men are the ones that really have it bad. It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
Feminists do not care about male struggles. And Iâm not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I donât know what they think because it doesnât matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
You are straight up just constructing a strawman and beating it to death. What feminist discussions have you attended? Any at all?
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little.
That is quite literally what we are trying to do. But people like you refuse it and try to turn it around as a way to disparage other groups and diminish discussions about womenâs struggles and gender in society. And you make strawmen constructed of some 2014 internet perception of a âfeministâ pretending feminists actually believe in that, meanwhile âmenâs rights activistsâ/anti-feminists are represented by literal far-right sex traffickers (as opposed to the many positive role models who are feminists). Like can you name any popular, modern-day, prominent-among-feminist influencers that are even a small fraction of the absurdity of that? Feminist role model influencers are random often apolitical chill people like Technoblade
lmao.Yeah Iâm just gonna call you a liar. All youâre doing is saying âoh yeah weâre totally working on thatâ but thatâs just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define menâs issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying âbut what about menâ has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, Iâve never even HEARD of anything like that. And Iâve gone looking.
Okay, youâre just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you donât like but Iâll give you what you want.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define menâs issues as being impossible to discuss.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like âyeah but what about these other issues I faceâ. Youâre honestly telling me you think someone who just says âoh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? thatâs bad, if not worse, and iâm tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my armâ is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss menâs issues?
You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying âbut what about menâ has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
I donât know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing womenâs struggles with âbut what about men who have X badâ it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say âIâm not a woman but hereâs my perspective as a man whoâs faced similar issuesâ, who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as menâs problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for menâs problems and try to say âwell actually women are privilegedâ to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender â most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say âbut loneliness isnât just a menâs thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!â yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time womenâs issues get brought up.
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades.
Yeah this is how I know youâre talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless Iâll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
âThe U.S. Department of Laborâs Womenâs Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations.â
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers.
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men.
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), hereâs a list:
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they donât. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so itâs the other way around. Menâs college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists arenât very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US⊠but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Because not only have I never seen anything like that, Iâve never even HEARD of anything like that. And Iâve gone looking.
Lmao you obviously havenât. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
YouTube Algorithms, facebook Algorithms, etc. make them all publishers responsible for their content.
the algorithms just rewards âshockingâ content; it generates conversation.
From my experience, men who follow feminism get pats on the back while men who ignore feminism get laid.
The issue isnât the men. Itâs what women value. Men just do what they think will get them laid.
This comment is somehow both extremely misogynistic and misandrist at the same time.
Men and women deserve respect. Men and women are responsible for their own actions. These two statements should not be controversial
