I hope this isn’t out of context, also I don’t want to “own the libs” or something here, I’m actually interested.
Because when the constitution was written there were 4 million “Americans” there are now 331 million.
When the constitution was written, it took 30 seconds to reload a single shot musket that had a maximum effective range of 100 yards. An AR15 can dump a 30 round magazine as fast as you can pull the trigger, be reloaded in 3 seconds, can hit targets out as far as someone can realistically see.
The problem with the rights is that they no longer function as intended. When they were written 20 civilian men with muskets was not significantly less dangerous than 20 soldiers with muskets, the idea that the people could stand up to a tyranical government was sound. Its not anymore. I dont care how well organised your anti-govt militia is the ATF or FBI could fuck you up without much trouble if you wanted to try them.
I say this as someone who thinks going shooting is enormously fun, I love the engineering, science and talent involved in it as a pursuit. But those “rights” mean mass shootings of innocent people dont even make the mainstream news half the time.
Look how with all of our sophisticated technology, we lost the war in Vietnam (and the surrounding countries we did war crimes in), and we lost the war in Afghanistan. Greater technology doesn’t always win, so even the level of arms we can legally obtain could still win a war.
The other thing to consider is that at the time the constitution was written, a single shot musket was not the pinnacle of weapons technology a private citizen could own. You could have a fully armed warship. It’s not a good argument to lean on the intention of the founding fathers, because at that time, you could privately own a ship capable of leveling a coastal city. Personally, I think their opinion doesn’t matter, anyway, cause they also intended for slavery to exist.
the idea that the people could stand up to a tyranical government was sound. Its not anymore. I dont care how well organised your anti-govt militia is the ATF or FBI could fuck you up without much trouble if you wanted to try them.
The Taliban and the IRA would disagree with that assessment
The problem with the rights is that they no longer function as intended. When they were written 20 civilian men with muskets was not significantly less dangerous than 20 soldiers with muskets, the idea that the people could stand up to a tyranical government was sound. Its not anymore. I dont care how well organised your anti-govt militia is the ATF or FBI could fuck you up without much trouble if you wanted to try them.
This is actually an argument for why We The People need civilian A-10 Thunderbolt 2s, HIMARS, and Javelins, etc, not an argument for why we shouldn’t have rights anymore.
That’s like saying the 1st should be abolished because they didn’t know about the Internet. It’s a terrible argument.
Statistics generally show that people with guns in their house are much more likely to be fatally shot. Suicide is a big factor, as are domestic disputes. It seems that generally, there are points in many people’s lives of extreme emotional anguish or rage, and if they have access to a firearm at that point they will use it, with deadly consequences. On the other side of the equation, successfully preventing harm with a firearm is comparatively more rare. In other words, owning guns causes more harm than it prevents.
At a societal level the same picture more or less bears out: the more guns available in a community, the higher the incidence rates of gun violence. This is true independent of crime levels, income, or demographics.
It therefore seems desirable to attempt to reduce the number of guns in private ownership. For the United States, that’s quite a complicated task, and I don’t see any realistic path to a gun-free society. Especially not with ~50% of the country opposed to such a goal. Probably the first step would have to be to increase public support for gun control, otherwise all efforts are futile.
Literally every town bullshit. This is propaganda which is utter nonsense. It’s like saying people with pools are more likely to drown in them. It uses suicide statics to try and back up it’s claim, which doesn’t work because DGUs happen at a far higher rate than suicides.
Fwiw, some of the lowest crime areas in the USA have some of the most lenient firearms regulation. New Hampshire for example had something like 27 total homicides in all of 2023, including ones not involving a firearm. Most of those were domestic disputes. The crime rate there is absurdly low even when you compare it to the small wealthy European nations everyone likes to circlejerk about. NH has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the USA, and allows carrying without a license and no registration or anything needed to purchase.
I know that’s just an anecdote but it does beg the question of whether guns have a causal relationship to crime rates or simply a correlation. I am inclined to believe it’s overwhelmingly the latter and only a sprinkle of the former, based on the research I’ve done.
To extend that, gun control is worse than useless if what you care about is saving lives and reducing crime. The effect is minimal at best, and performative more than anything else. Every tax dollar and minute we spend on gun control could have a far greater payoff if we directed it toward addressing the root causes of these tragedies. Instead we just use guns as a scapegoat, pass restrictions on them, then pat ourselves on the back while kids continue to grow up in crippling poverty and adults are left with no support systems to turn to when life shits on them.
Did you know that people who own legos are much more likely to step on lego bricks?
And I know it’s a shock but people with elecricity in their homes are at a MUCH higher risk of death by electrocution and electrical fires.
That isn’t a good argument, no matter what it’s for/against.
Honestly, I think it’s mostly fear. There are practical reasons to own a gun and be familiar with its use and maintenance, but there are people who have varying levels of fear of weapons on a spectrum from simple discomfort to full on hoplophobia. The same people seem to be generally uncomfortable with being responsible for their own safety, and prefer to live in areas where government agencies are at hand to deal with any kinds of emergencies they may have.
It’s the “don’t do this, get an adult” mentality extending into adulthood. Once you’re an adult, the next level of authority to shunt personal responsibility onto is the government.
Honestly, I think it’s mostly fear.
Rightly so, because you could get shot just for coming across some idiot who’s having a bad day.
There are no “practical” uses for a gun that come up often enough in people’s lives to outnumber the needless death from misuse, or purposeful murder.
Since 2007, there have been less than 500 justifiable homicides per year in the US. And that includes all means of defense. So it’s a myth that gun owners are somehow more responsible for their own safety. People just aren’t using guns for self defense. You know what they are using them for? Murder.
So the people who defend gun ownership are the ones shunting personal responsibility to protect themselves and their communities.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251894/number-of-justifiable-homicides-in-the-us/
Along the lines of “fear” I would also add that ubiquitous gun ownership is a large reason for the militarisation and overzealous violence in American police departments. Since anybody could be bristling with guns, the police approach many situations armed for the worst. This makes nobody safer.
Anybody could be bristling with guns since long before the militarization of police in America.
Nah, man. The police have no obligation to protect me, and even if they did, they can’t get to me fast enough.
Private weapon ownership (of guns or any other weapons) is inseparable from the human right of self-defense.
With a knife (or other manual weapon) you have to be trained, lucky or prepared to kill even a single person, with a gun any person can shoot a whole school. It’s too much power for some people. Plus you add range to weapons, making it even more deadly and unpredictable (collateral damage, crossfire, etc).
If you set those cons against the pros of “it’s fun to sometimes target practice” then it’s clear the better option is to ban them, like most countries do. Most people aren’t against the actual mechanical contraption known as guns, they’re against the fear a shooting can happen to them, their loved ones, or other innocents.
And in terms of protecting yourself from people who do have guns: guess what, in countries where guns are banned 99% of the bad guys also don’t have them.
Besides shootings? You’re kidding right? That’s like asking “why don’t people like cancer? (Except for the chemo and death part)”
In no particular order…
- Many men are total pussies and would never consider self defense to the point of killing someone something they would do.
- Somewhat contradictally, people don’t trust themselves with a gun, so therefore, they don’t trust others with guns.
- Feminism. Feminism raises mothering to a societal level. Women want everyone to be protected and safe via the a motherly govt overlord. Women intrinsically desire equal outcome. That requires communism. So any means to achieve that. Like authoritarianism.
- The rise of Marxism and authoritarianism. Many people want to be told what to do. That only works on a broad scale if the people who refuse are unarmed.
- Ignorance. Cognitive dissonance. Narcissism. Lack of critical thinking skills. Inability to set feelings aside and consider things logically.
- Brainwashing. There’s about 3 generations that have grown up with commie public schools telling them guns are bad. I’ve converted quite a few democrats from gun fear to fun by just taking them shooting and covering the $40 worth of ammo they use up.
OK. There’s no way you’re not a troll, but (2), I take issue with. I own guns and am pro gun control, and (2) is bullshit because I’m the only person I trust with one. The rest of you crayon-eating assholes, I wouldn’t trust with scissors.
I also take issue with (5), because it’s only dumb bastards who are unable to understand basic math enough to notice that, globally, murder rates are highly correlated with firearm (and especially, handgun) ownership.
(6) assumes that a reasoned position is a result of fear, which is because that’s how you react to the world, and so believe this is true for everyone. It’s ok; it’s a common failing of the human character, but you’re in luck, because it’s easy to mature out of.
I own guns, but if we get reasonable gun control laws in this country, I’ll be OK with it because all y’all obviously don’t know your ass from your elbow and keep shooting each other. I’ll be ok also because I haven’t made guns my identity, and I have other hobbies.
You gave the troll away when you threw feminism in there. That was too over-the-top baiting, and it came out of nowhere. However, the dig at Marxism was pretty well played, given how many far-left there are on Lemmy. That was chef’s kiss.
You exemplify #5 and are apparently a boot licker since you support gun control. Probably red flag laws too! Disgusting!
If you understood this basic math you speak of, you’d know that literally no govt ever lays down arms next to it’s citizens. Gun control is control of the populace. Nothing less. How can you say with a straight face that you support only the govt having firearms when the last 100 years have shown humanity what happens when govt has too much power. Every country that has taken away firearms has had not a decrease in violence but am increase! Are you aware that home invasions are higher after confiscation? Other violence too, but let’s just consider the horror of having armed invaders in your castle, raping and hurting your family.
I am no troll. I am an absolutist. As recently ruled, illegal immigrants have the same inalienable rights as a citizen to the entirety of the bill of rights. The felon that has served his time and deemed safe to release into society absolutely gains all his rights upon release.
You claim we - who is we? The liberal (in the true sense of the word) gun owner? - keep killing each other. Who is killing whom? The gangs and the criminals. So you DEMAND that the innocent be disarmed? How stupid! How can you claim logic and reason yet make such a statement! Only a fool argues that sheep remove their teeth when the wolf bites!
And feminism is anti liberal (again, the true sense of the word). Feminism is the worship and the belief of superiority of one sex over another. How bigoted and ignorant. Feminism destroys the family unit, peaceful society, and is antithetical to biological predispositions that allow man and woman live in peace and happiness with one another. I can already see your pathetic response that women deserve equal rights to men. Please tell me this: What right does a man have today that a woman does not?
If I am a troll, it is because I mistook this sub for one where gun rights are respected. I see that some believe this is the place to complain about guns, not support them. How sad and pathetic.
I wish you no harm. Only that you are cleansed of this brainwashed set of ideals that do nothing to support the ideal that all men (and women - as I’m sure you don’t understand English grammar enough to know that means both sexes) are allowed to defend themselves any way necessary to preserve their life and liberty.
It’s a sub for people who are interested in guns, whether they own them or not. What it isn’t is a crack-job 2A extremist circle-jerk. Plenty of folks here support the 2nd amendment. Some, like me, think it’s an anachronism from a time when a civilian uprising had a snowball’s chance in hell against our modern military. Hell, you don’t have a chance against our paramilitarized police force, much less any branch of our armed forces. But, still, the amendment is there, and we have to work with that, and the consequences of “militias” trying to kidnap or assasinate elected officials. Which I’m sure is what the founding fathers intended when they added that amendment 🙄
I could debate this with you, but you don’t even understand the mastermind above, because you’re an evil freedom hating commie
Lemme… Apparently where the reddit tankies went. Pathetic.
