• brown567@sh.itjust.works
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    9 days ago

    I’m voting blue, and you should too

    But if it’s a competition for engagement, why did we have to go with the least engaging candidate possible?

    • Zorque@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      Because the system isn’t fixed yet.

      Unfortunately, we have to engage in order to fix it. It won’t just fix itself so that we can participate with a clean ego conscience.

      • Habahnow@sh.itjust.works
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        9 days ago

        So much this. This is a shitty game, but the only way to fix the game, is to play. Keep voting blue to beat the fascist reds, and in primaries, vote with your heart. A strong voter turnout for both will make the red party irrelevant until they move more to the center, while also pushing blue more left.

        • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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          8 days ago

          A union doesn’t get better treatment by continuing to work the machines that mangle them.

          I dont have much of a better answer but I’m getting tired of hearing this.

          • Habahnow@sh.itjust.works
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            8 days ago

            that metaphor doesn’t apply. The only way you change the rules in politics is by participating in politics. Conservatives have been losing pretty hard since Biden won. If they keep trying to push messaging that doesn’t get people to vote for them, then other people will try to take over and try to appeal to those same voters, but with different messaging.

      • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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        9 days ago

        Okay… But let’s walk it out… Say turn out is good enough to beat Trump this time… Biden gets in again… What’s the next step? How do we then get him and the Dems to fix the system? Probably not even that hard… Ranked choice, end dark money, end gerrymandering… The rest will likely sort itself out… So what? Do we call our elected reps and say, okay, this time I really mean it, you fix this dumpster fire or else… Else what?

        (Just to keep this from getting derailed… I’m voting for Biden and so should everyone, especially in the swing states.)

        But I’ve heard this song before… Over and over… Just vote like you’re told to this time, and then we’ll fix the system later… And like clockwork we’re right back here every 4 years… And god forbid anyone ever point out that we did this exact same dance last time, and we got them in, and shocker of all shockers, they didn’t fucking fix anything about the system. Shit, they didn’t even try.

        So show me the Democrat’s plan to fix the system. Or I guess it is already “fixed”… How are they going to unfuck it?

        • frickineh@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          Step one is that people need to show up for more than just presidential elections. The only way to move left at a national level is to show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races and it’s more than just a couple of them here or there. Get more progressives in the kind of offices that can set them up to be governors and senators - those are the people who generally end up as president. There’s no overnight solution, which is what a lot of people seem to expect.

          Buuuut voter turnout in non-presidential election years sucks, and it’s even worse outside of midterms. I don’t know how to solve that part. I’ve voted in every single election I could since I turned 18, and I don’t understand the complete lack of engagement. I know how to solve the things that prevent willing voters from doing it, but I don’t know how we fix apathy.

          • SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races

            OK but when PACs go out of their way to support their opponents by shoveling millions into their campaigns… Jamal bowman, an actual progressive, lost to an ancient white establishment dem who was endorsed by Hillary “beat the market” Clinton.

            • frickineh@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              That goes along with apathy, I think. Being an informed voter takes effort, and an unfortunate number of people don’t make it. I knew that was happening and was appalled, and a lot of people on Lemmy knew, but for plenty of voters, they just knew the names and saw some ads and said good enough.

              People always say Democrats are worse at messaging than Republicans (though it’s arguably a lot easier to get the message of, “vote for me, I’ll hurt people you hate,” across than it is to communicate actual policies), but I’m not sure progressives are that great at it either. There’s a lot of internal division and impatience with anyone who isn’t immediately on board 100%, and it’s off-putting. I’m not immune to those things by any means, so I understand the impulse, but it’s probably not the best way to attract voters.

              • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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                9 days ago

                I know I often get tired of Bernie’s spiel… Like, we get it, the oligarchy is fucking us all, they’ve bought the government, education should be free, healthcare should be free, the minimum wage should be a living wage, etc etc… but where’s the PLAN? Give me a 6 year plan, state by state, election by election… Where do we focus next? Who are we swapping out for a progressive? State level, federal level, and the DNC itself.

            • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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              9 days ago

              Sort of a catch 22… We need free and fair elections in order to get progressives through primaries, but we need progressives to already be elected to create a free and fair election system.

              • SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
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                9 days ago

                Right? Can hardly blame apathetic voters. Certainly won’t encourage spreading the belief though. When everyone is doomer pilled is when we officially lose forever.

            • Zorque@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              Okay? So work on the next one. And the next one. And the next one. Get the word out. One failure doesn’t mean the end. Hell, a thousand failures don’t mean the end.

              Giving up means the end. If that’s what you want to do, fine. But don’t blame anyone but yourself and your ilk for it when things continue to get shittier.

          • Clinicallydepressedpoochie@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            It goes beyond voter turnout, as well. After the elections over, win or lose, we need to stay engaged. If Biden had to answer for his policy on Isreal in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 we may have an entirely different outcome. At the very least you need to let the status quo die. If you think the DNC is just A O K ‘same as it’s ever been’ please escort your way toward the door. We need the party to turn full progressive then put itself to bed by implementing voting reform.

            This is how we save each other from authoritarian oppression, from climate apocalypse, and from violent revolution.

            I can only assure you of two things, it’s never been done before and your government doesn’t want it to happen.

          • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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            9 days ago

            There’s also the issue of establishment Dems all but rigging primaries for their anointed candidate.

          • daltotron@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            The only way to move left at a national level is to show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races and it’s more than just a couple of them here or there.

            I mean, it’s pretty hard to run as a progressive candidate if you’re not running at the federal level. Not only are you working with a subdivision of a subdivision of a subdivision of the country’s population, but there’s not many actionable progressive policies that you can actually enact at the local level, where austerity politics (due to lack of power and federal funding) and NIMBYism are more free to reign supreme. You can’t exactly enact universal healthcare at the local level. Hell, you can barely get it across to house the local homeless and your resources are probably gonna be maxed out as soon as that comes up. Local infrastructure is something that can take years and years for changes to take effect, so even if that’s a pretty controllable thing at the local level, it’s very hard for that to be an actually campaign-able issue. Local elections are also going to have larger disparities between who’s able to communicate their message effectively because they’re going to have larger disparities in terms of funding, which is obviously going to reflect voter engagement very directly.

            It’s a much more solid and impenetrable catch-22 than people would generally be led to believe. People would like to just say that we need higher voter turnout for the city water commissioner, or that we need people to run for those positions and other positions where elections are basically a formality, and be done with it, but the issues even at the local level are systemic and pretty heavily entrenched and there are lots of thing that you can’t really make serious progress on without a large level of federal intervention or funding. Those things are worth doing in their own right, sure, and at an even more atomic level, volunteering at a soup kitchen or whatever other actual local work is something that can be rewarding just by itself, right, because it makes you a better person, helps people, etc. But I also wouldn’t expect those things on their own to cause a massive upset or a series of cascading progressive victories, in the same way I would expect random fluctuations in the fabric of the universe to spawn a strawberry rhubarb pie right in front of me, unless the circumstances of the pie were to already be in effect or so on.

            I suppose what I am saying is that it’s pretty hard to fix the apathy because the apathy is a sensible response in many respects. At one hand, the apathy is a normal response to seeing that you are adrift in a kind of sea of chaos and noise where you are but one actor that can do basically nothing in the grand scheme. It’s a sensible response when you understand that the things which keep you in that sea of chaos and noise are heavily entrenched and very hard to change. It’s a sensible response when whatever grand narrative you were clutching to in order to make sense of the world has been exposed as totally false and hollow and probably made up by some guy in the 1800s. Apathy is especially a sensible response when you understand all of this, and also want to keep doing what you’ve been doing because it’s really the only thing you know how to do and you’re at odds otherwise with how to survive, and aren’t very risk-taking specifically because you’re in a kind of survival mode. The problem is I think that this is a kind of adverse adaptation, and there are some changes which are necessary to survive in such conditions. Community with other people is one of the things which consistently helps out the most in actual crises, either personal or grand in scale, and community with others is also one of those things that happens to line up precisely with political action.

            Which is to say that I think the apathy will probably solve itself, because it’s going to be pretty much either sink or swim, are you in or are you out, and I don’t think people are going to find themselves with the luxury of inaction for very much longer or else they will probably more consistently condemn themselves to a lack of resources out of some sense of pride or just raw antisocial outlooks. But then, people knew smoking were killing them for a really long time, and that never really tapered off too much until places started banning it, so, who knows, maybe we’re all just fucked.

        • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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          9 days ago

          What’s the next step?

          The republicans come up with the next boogeyman and the democrats jam some new unpopular shill down our throat “or else we lose democracy” and so on until people stop putting up with it because nothing ever gets better and we do actually lose democracy.

        • roguetrick@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          What’s the next step?

          It’s not salvageable on the national level. It’s only going to happen with organization outside of the DNC. Unions, community organizations, and activist groups for boycotts and strikes with a clearly defined political objective.

          • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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            9 days ago

            We could also take over the DNC relatively easily. Every state has its own chapter and they elect their own leadership… Which then elects DNC leadership. And only like 5 people ever vote in those elections.

        • Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          We already have a roadmap for this, thanks to the fascists. The way they took over the Republican party 15 years ago was by aggressively getting involved in the primary process. Once establishment neoliberal Dems start losing their primaries, the rest will get the hint real quick.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.worldM
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            9 days ago

            Funding? How do we fund a Dem party takeover? GoFundMe? Genuinely asking, Repubs have money to burn, we don’t.

            • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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              9 days ago

              I’m not sure if party elections are covered by the same finance laws as regular elections… Good question.

              • TokenBoomer@lemmy.worldM
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                9 days ago

                The Justice Democrats tried this. They ran into the same problem that all groups face when trying to change the system from within- campaign financing.

                Capitalism will not allow a change that contributes to its demise. This needs to be grassroots social movement, outside the system to have any chance of succeeding. Look to New Deal progressivism and reform as a guide.

          • Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee
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            9 days ago

            You would hope… But the only message they seem to have gotten so far is “lean into your corporate owners donors more.”

        • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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          9 days ago

          (Just to keep this from getting derailed… I’m voting for Biden and so should everyone, especially in the swing states.)

          But I’ve heard this song before… Over and over… Just vote like you’re told to this time, and then we’ll fix the system later… And like clockwork we’re right back here every 4 years… And god forbid anyone ever point out that we did this exact same dance last time, and we got them in, and shocker of all shockers, they didn’t fucking fix anything about the system. Shit, they didn’t even try.

          So show me the Democrat’s plan to fix the system. Or I guess it is already “fixed”… How are they going to unfuck it?

          you keep giving them what they want from you so they have no reason to bother fixing it

        • Zorque@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          You don’t get the Dems to fix the system, that’s not the point. They’re not a solution, they’re one step. The problem is we’ve been leaving it to that one step and just magically expecting things to get fixed for us.

          Showing up helps, but it’s only the first step. And you have to show up for everything. Not just once every four years, or even every two. You need to show up for every vote. Down to local dog-catcher. Because that change trickles up.

          I’m not a strategist, I don’t have all the answers… but I know giving up cause you haven’t seen the change you wanted through minimum effort is fucking stupid. It’s hard. No one said it wouldn’t be. But that’s no reason to decide it’s not worth the effort.

        • Syrc@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          How do we then get him and the Dems to fix the system?

          First step is getting Republicans to stop being literal fascists. And that means that they have to lose so many times in a row that they have to rethink the whole party strategy to try getting elected again.

          Then, once republicans go back to being just corporate shills, Dems will have to actually push left because the “we’re not Satan” strategy won’t work anymore.

      • FuzzyRedPanda@lemm.ee
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        9 days ago

        If we’re expecting democrats to fix our broken, two party system, we’re going to be waiting a long time. The left is going to have to work hard and do it ourselves. Democrats are enslaved in a broken system they helped create.

        • Zorque@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          If you’re expecting anyone to fix a system for you while you sit on your ass, you’re in for a world of disappointment.

          This isn’t a fix, it’s one step. You need to do a hell of a lot more than show up once or twice a year to get things fixed. And it takes more than just you. That’s what the whole post is about. People don’t show up because they feel it’s impossible to change.

          In no small part because of doom-sayers like yourself who constantly keep saying that “if you do it that way you’re bound to fail, so don’t even try”.

          Democrats are a stop-gap. I’m not saying they’re not. But if you remove that stop gap the entire system floods. If you have a better way to staunch the flow, I’d love to hear it. But all I hear from your type is “But I put in the bare minimum possible effort and it didn’t change things, so I’m going to stop trying at all”.

          • FuzzyRedPanda@lemm.ee
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            9 days ago

            Whoa, I didn’t say not to try! I’m saying the opposite! We should never stop fighting to make things better.

        • Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          You know you get to choose who the Democrats are, right? You can get involved in the party and vote for the leadership of the DNC and your local and state chapters. You can vote in the primaries. Hell, you can run for office yourself.

      • tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        9 days ago

        I have participated for over two decades in all ways possible, I can’t support any part of this system with a good conscience anymore. We can do something better, the US constitution and neoliberal capitalism isn’t the ultimate attainment of human progress.

        • Optional@lemmy.worldOP
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          8 days ago

          the US constitution and neoliberal capitalism isn’t the ultimate attainment of human progress

          That’s why the pyramid is unfinished.

          • tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            9 days ago

            Political systems have collapsed countless times in history. When I say something better I mean something outside of this corrupted, illegitimate system that rewards only the wealthy, a structure which will kill us all if we don’t work against it.

            • Syrc@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              Political systems have collapsed countless times in history.

              Due to not enough people voting? Or due to violent revolutions? Because the first one doesn’t have a great track record, as far as I know.

    • greenskye@lemm.ee
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      9 days ago

      My question still is why does it feel like the democratic party continues to try to mostly target ‘undecided’ voters. Which I’m still not convinced actually exist in any significant numbers. But I know tons and tons and tons of theoretically democrat voters that just don’t bother to actually vote.

      Feels like 80% of the messaging is aimed at somehow flipping a red voter blue instead of actually capitalizing on the blue voters they actually have.

      Whereas all I see Republicans do is advertise to their own base. I basically never see them legitimately try to flip a blue voter. They seem to correctly recognize that’s a lost cause, so they spend most of their effort on energizing their voter base.